[Rhodes22-list] Axle location

Michael D. Weisner mweisner at ebsmed.com
Fri May 21 15:53:53 EDT 2021 

Town landfill or sanitation transfer stations have drive on scales. The local town landfill/recycling center folks always jokingly direct me to their personal vehicle as the point of recycling for a boat, when I weigh the trailer and boat. They don't charge any fee as long as I don't leave anything behind.

Mike
s/v Wind Lass ('91)
Nissequogue River, NY
I’d rather be sailing :~)


-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of Steven Alm
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 3:48 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location

Roger. Yes, Fandango is a "newer" 1990 with IMF. In calculating my 10% wouldn't I also include the trailer weight? In that case I'm probably up around 4000 or more. Do you happen to know if just anyone can pull into a truck weigh station on the interstate? I don't know where else I could weigh.

On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 2:21 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Cary,
>
> Agreed!  This is yet another reason to have a tandem axle trailer.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> Windows 10
>
> From: Cary Tolbert<mailto:retiredtoby at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 3:00 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
>
> For what it is worth, LOW tire pressure on the trailer will also 
> affect the sway.  Yeah, been there.
> Cary.
>
> On Fri, May 21, 2021, 2:41 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Slim,
> >
> > As I recall, Fandango is a newer R-22 with IMF mainsail and a much
> fancier
> > interior.  Your boat and trailer probably weighs more than 3100 lbs 
> > when rigged for trailering with full tanks and the outboard mounted 
> > on the transom.  3600 lbs wouldn’t surprise me; but, I would get it 
> > weighed to
> be
> > certain.  Then, I would use the > 10% of the gross trailer weight
> criteria
> > for the minimum tongue weight.  If it’s stable on the highway; then, 
> > you have enough tongue weight and might be able to back off a 
> > little.  But, having the trailer go into a death sway on the expressway is terrifying!
> > So, be careful.  On my boat/trailer combination, the worst case 
> > scenarios are strong crosswinds &/or the shockwave from a passing 
> > truck.  The
> trailer
> > might be nominally stable only to fail an “insult test” and go into 
> > a bad wobble.  My wife won’t allow me to have that kind of 
> > excitement!  If the present tongue weight isn’t causing some other 
> > issue, like something rubbing or dragging on the ground, what’s the 
> > incentive for reducing the tongue weight?
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> > Windows 10
> >
> > From: Steven Alm<mailto:stevenalm at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:50 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> >
> > This discussion has made me curious, and after seeing Todd's drawing 
> > I
> went
> > out and measured and yes, my front axle is 6" in front of what his
> drawing
> > shows, and my rear axle is 36" behind that. But Roger, you now have 
> > me wondering if my tongue weight is too much. I haven't taken the 
> > bathroom scale to it — and I will — but if it's more than approx. 
> > 310 lbs,
> wouldn't
> > I be able to achieve that by loading the boat a little farther back? 
> > That would be easy to do and I could be pretty exact by positioning 
> > the bow
> stop
> > slightly rearward when I load. Thanks.
> >
> > Slim
> > Fandango
> >
> > On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:26 AM Graham Stewart 
> > <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Perfect. Thanks Roger. That is much simpler than what I had 
> > > imagined. I appreciate your patience as now that I see it, it 
> > > should have been
> > obvious
> > > to me.
> > >
> > > My boat has always had a full marine toilet and holding tank. When 
> > > I
> got
> > > my boat about 26 years ago the holding tank was immediately behind 
> > > the V-birth and there was no water tank on the boat nor was there 
> > > any
> obvious
> > > place where one had been even though there was a deck fill. After 
> > > my rebuild I replaced the old metal, and leaking, holding tank 
> > > with a
> > smaller
> > > poly tank in the same place as the previous tank had been but I 
> > > also
> had
> > > room for my battery. Because I just day sail in recent years my 
> > > holding tank is empty all of the time - so no weight there to speak of.
> > >
> > > For water I am using a removable jerry can that stays below the 
> > > sink midship on the starboard side. Again, there is rarely any water in it.
> > When
> > > I need water I just take the can up to my house and fill what I 
> > > need. I have a deck fill installed but it is easier to just fill 
> > > the tank given that my boat is docked in front of my house.
> > >
> > > Where is your water tank located?
> > >
> > > Graham Stewart
> > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > Kingston Ontario
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 8:03 AM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> > >
> > > Graham,
> > >
> > > You will need a bathroom scale that reads up to 350 lbs and 2 
> > > hydraulic bottle jacks.  First load up the boat as you will have 
> > > it for
> trailering
> > it
> > > down the road.  In my case, that includes a full tank of fuel, 
> > > empty porta-potti, full water tank, and of course, the outboard 
> > > mounted on
> the
> > > transom.  I assume you have a tongue jack?  If not, you will need 
> > > a
> jack
> > > stand or something to support the end of the tongue on top of the
> scale.
> > > Start by putting the tongue jack on top of the scale and get a 
> > > tongue weight measurement.  The rule of thumb for tongue weight is 
> > > about 10%
> of
> > > the gross trailer weight in order to have stability.  Figure your 
> > > boat
> > and
> > > single axle trailer weighs about 3100 lbs.  So, you need about 310 
> > > lbs
> of
> > > tongue weight.  Now, jack the trailer frame up from the same spot 
> > > on
> both
> > > sides.  I would start immediately behind the tires.  Get the 
> > > trailer’s frame at approximately the same level as when it was 
> > > supported by the tires.  Note that you will probably have to 
> > > remove the tires to get it
> > low
> > > enough.  Now, measure the tongue weight as before.  It should be
> greater
> > > than before.  Keep moving the jack points aft until you find a 
> > > spot on
> > the
> > > frame that gives you about 310 lbs of tongue weight.  That’s where 
> > > your single axle needs to be moved to.
> > >
> > > By the way, your R-22 is the same year as mine.  The early R-22’s 
> > > had porta-potti’s, not marine toilets and holding tanks.  Where is 
> > > your
> water
> > > tank located?
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> > > Windows 10
> > >
> > > From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 9:59 PM
> > > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> > >
> > > Thanks to all for their suggestions. It seems that the best 
> > > solution
> for
> > > me would be to have the axle moved back. I don't trailer enough to
> > justify
> > > the second axle and the other option to add weight to the tongue 
> > > seem
> to
> > me
> > > to be a workaround rather than a fix and moving the boat forward 
> > > is
> both
> > > very difficult and damaging to the hull. The area immediately aft 
> > > of
> the
> > > V-birth hold my holding tank and battery, not my water tank,  so
> > obviously
> > > I am not going to keep my holding tank full permanently.
> > >
> > > The big question for me now is to determine exactly how far aft I 
> > > will have the axle moved. If anyone can suggest how I might 
> > > determine that distance I would be grateful to hear your suggestions.
> > >
> > > Graham Stewart
> > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > Kingston Ontario
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 5:20 PM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> > >
> > > Graham,
> > >
> > > Assuming you have a 15 gallon water tank mounted at the aft end of 
> > > the V-berths, filling it would add ~125 lbs.  This additional 
> > > weight would
> be
> > > located at about the front end of the bunks on the trailer.  
> > > Because
> the
> > > weight is not located right on the end of the tongue, you will not 
> > > see
> > the
> > > full 125 lbs as additional tongue weight.  On S/V Dynamic 
> > > Equilibrium
> and
> > > my Lil Dude trailer, filling the water tank adds about 48 lbs of 
> > > tongue weight.  The rest of the 125 lbs is loaded onto the trailer 
> > > wheels
> > because
> > > of the location of the water tank.  If the tongue weight situation 
> > > on
> > your
> > > trailer is causing marginal stability; this extra 48 lbs may help.  
> > > It certainly won’t hurt.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On May 20, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Rick Lange 
> > > > <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Graham,
> > > >
> > > > Fill your water tank.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rick Lange
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:54 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <
> roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Graham,
> > > >>
> > > >> Whatever the reference point or the measurement, the fact that 
> > > >> your
> > > tongue
> > > >> weight is too low tells you everything you need to know.  If 
> > > >> you
> don’t
> > > want
> > > >> to just live with it, your options are: move the single axle
> backward
> > on
> > > >> the trailer, add a 2nd axle behind the 1st, move the boat 
> > > >> forward on
> > the
> > > >> trailer, or add weight to the tongue.
> > > >>
> > > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >>
> > > >> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> 
> > > >> for Windows 10
> > > >>
> > > >> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:50 PM
> > > >> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email 
> > > >> List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> > > >>
> > > >> Sorry for the confusion. Because all of the other dimensions 
> > > >> matched
> > the
> > > >> drawing I used the distance from the axle to the back because 
> > > >> it was
> > the
> > > >> easiest measurement forgetting that others might have a 
> > > >> different structure.
> > > >>
> > > >> The distance between the center of the axle and the point where 
> > > >> the extension enters the trailer is 165" while that distance on 
> > > >> the
> > drawing
> > > is
> > > >> 172"
> > > >>
> > > >> Graham Stewart
> > > >> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] 
> > > >> On
> > > Behalf
> > > >> Of
> > > >> Lowe, Rob
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:33 PM
> > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> > > >>
> > > >> I agree with Todd that the reference point should be the center 
> > > >> of
> the
> > > ball
> > > >> socket.  That's where the tongue weight is measure and where 
> > > >> the
> > towing
> > > >> force is applied. - Rob
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on 
> > > >> behalf
> of
> > > Todd
> > > >> Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:11 AM
> > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> > > >>
> > > >> By looking at these old drawings, I guess the datum 
> > > >> point/benchmark
> > > really
> > > >> should have been the center of the ball socket, which would 
> > > >> have
> > better
> > > >> standardized the tongue weight (and balance). That would have 
> > > >> to
> > assume
> > > the
> > > >> coupler and extension lengths were somewhat uniform.
> > > >>
> > > >> Measuring the axle position from the rear of the trailer frame 
> > > >> or
> the
> > > rear
> > > >> bunk support is not the best reference.
> > > >> Also, the angles of the bunks are a little off (I was never 
> > > >> good at
> > > trig).
> > > >> Thankfully my carpenter's calculator has a rise over run function.
> The
> > > >> angles for the bunks are closer to 22.5° in the rear and 37° in 
> > > >> the
> > > front
> > > >> (from horizontal).
> > > >>
> > > >> I seemed to remember there was approximately a 6" difference in 
> > > >> axle positions between owners' trailers, but most reported the 
> > > >> more
> > rearward
> > > >> dimension so I changed the drawing. There may be early drawings 
> > > >> of
> the
> > > >> trailer in the archives before I edited the drawing which show 
> > > >> the
> > > forward
> > > >> measurements..but I do not know.
> > > >>
> > > >> Todd T.
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:46 AM Cary Tolbert 
> > > >>> <retiredtoby at gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Graham, my boat is an '86 and the trailer that came with the 
> > > >>> boat
> is
> > a
> > > >>> Triad.. Therefore I must assume the trailer is an 86 as well. 
> > > >>> I
> just
> > > >>> measured from the end of the trailer to the center of the axle 
> > > >>> and
> it
> > > is
> > > >> ,
> > > >>> DRUM ROLL  . . . . . . . . . 75 1/2 inch. Sorry to add to the
> > > confusion..
> > > >>> My front end measurements may also be off. I had the extension 
> > > >>> bar
> > > >> replaced
> > > >>> and last year added a braking system which added to the length 
> > > >>> of
> the
> > > >>> extension with a brake actuator.  Mike is the second 
> > > >>> generation in
> > the
> > > >>> trailer company and I am sure the trailer has evolved over the
> years.
> > > >> You
> > > >>> know that Stan is always tinkering with something. I think my
> trailer
> > > was
> > > >>> manufactured in Connecticut . The newer trailers are made in NC.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Best of luck
> > > >>> Cary
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:33 AM Graham Stewart <
> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> I just measured the location of my axle and compared it to 
> > > >>>> the
> > > drawings
> > > >>>> prepared by Todd and found that my axle is 7" forward of what 
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>> drawings
> > > >>>> specify. That strikes me as a pretty significant difference. 
> > > >>>> I am
> > > >>> wondering
> > > >>>> if the others who have found it impossible to get their boats 
> > > >>>> far
> > > >> enough
> > > >>>> forward might also measure the distance between the back of 
> > > >>>> their
> > > >> trailer
> > > >>>> to the center of the axle to see if this is the reason for 
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>> difficulty.
> > > >>>> The drawing stipulates that this distance should be 70" but 
> > > >>>> mine
> is
> > > >> 77".
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Does anyone know whether this dimension changed at some time
> between
> > > >>> older
> > > >>>> and newer iterations of the boat?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Graham Stewart
> > > >>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > >>>> Kingston Ontario
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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