[Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

[Lowe, Rob]

Hey Cary, don't knock a cat until you try one!  While I don't think a cat would work well on Claytor, but the time we went to the BVI, a cat was perfect!  Plenty of space and the sailing was excellent! 

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of Cary Tolbert
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 9:18 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

That sounds nice Roger but where is the fun. It is like FLAG football. Is it really football?
Cary
S/V Whisper
Claytor Lake, VA

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:02 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> This thread has gotten a bit off topic from the original topic of 
> improving upwind performance.  To those whose spouses don’t like 
> heeling, get them out on a catamaran and see what they think.  & I 
> don’t mean a small beachable cat either.  Beach cats are too easy to 
> capsize.  I mean get them out sailing on a big cruising catamaran.  
> Every year, I take my Boy Scout troop out for a day sail on my friend’s 42 ft LOA cat, S/V Now
> What? .   Effortless 7-10 knot cruising speeds under sail with ~4 deg of
> heel, lots of deck space to stretch out on, and no motor sounds.  You 
> do have to contend with the “Whooshing”  sound from the twin rooster tails
> coming off the stern.   It’s an expensive solution; but, it will forever
> change the way you look at monohull sailboats.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 28, 2022, at 5:48 PM, Bob Cohen <bobfcohen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dennis -
> >
> > I am just now getting around to reading this very interesting
> conversation.
> >
> > My wife (who is from Detroit) and I live in West Virginia but we 
> > have a
> summer house in Arcadia, MI.  A few years ago we bought our first 
> sailboat
> - a 2007 Rhodes 22 - which we keep in Onekama on Portage Lake, with 
> water access to Lake Michigan.  We are novices and would like to sail 
> with others who have Rhodes experience.
> >
> > If you should want to come Up North this summer, we would welcome 
> > you
> and your wife to sail with us.  I can be reached at bobfcohen at gmail.com.
> >
> > Bob Cohen
> > s/v Silver Bay
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf 
> > Of
> Dennis McNeely
> > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:13 PM
> > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
> >
> > Thanks for the invitation Stephen!
> >
> > We still have Magic Moments, our '86 Rhodes 22, but it has been 
> > spending
> most of its time hanging in our boat lift. I started some galley 
> retrofits in an effort to interest Sandi in sailing, but it was not to 
> be, so now I work on the boat from time to time, and when the wind is 
> right for a broad reach over to Canada and back I'll drop her in the 
> water and head out. I still love the magic moment when I silence the 
> motor and the wind begins to drive the boat. <sigh>
> >
> > But... the trawler presents other opportunities for Sandi and I, and
> will better deal with some of Mother Nature's silliness when she blows 
> up 4
> - 6 foot waves on the lake with little notice.
> >
> > And so I lurk here on DaList - sailing vicariously with all of you!
> >
> > Dennis
> > S/V Magic Moments
> > M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel
> >   ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf 
> > Of
> Stephen Staum
> > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:13 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
> >
> > Thanks Dennis.  My wife's first comment when I took her sailing in 
> > 2002
> on a Pearson 26 (which has a full heavy keel) was:  This is very nice 
> but does it have to tilt like this?
> > I knew I was in trouble.  The next year we got our first Rhodes 22, 
> > an
> '87 with IMF.  Needless to say, it is far more tender than the Pearson 
> 26 (which was a club boat) so I learned to reef early and often.  We 
> are now on our 3rd Rhodes.  Last year we bought the s/v Pinafore, a 
> '90 that was refurbed by Stan in 2016 and sold our beloved Carol Lee 
> 2.  The CL2 was an
> > '83 that I converted to an IMF main using the mast salvaged from the
> Carol Lee which swamped and turtled in a hurricane in 2011 and was 
> totaled by Boat US Insurance.  The Pinafore has the fully enclosed 
> head with flush toilet instead of the porta potti, electric motor lift 
> to save my old back and a 2016 (very quiet) 4 stroke Evinrude outboard 
> to make motoring to and from the mooring far more pleasant than our 
> old (but very reliable) screaming 2 stroke.
> >
> > Also worth mentioning,  my wife Carol does not swim well and is
> terrified of the water.  I bought her an offshore automatic inflatable 
> life vest when we first started and she has sailed with me almost 
> every weekend since.
> > The little boat is our on-the-water summer home.  We often sail with 
> > the
> Genoa (now a 130) only and I even reef that if the wind gusts get over 
> 10 knots.  We survived a sudden squall 2 years ago with 70 mph winds 
> and 5 foot seas!  I was tethered at the helm with Carol in the cabin 
> with the pop top down.  It was terrifying but the seaworthiness of the 
> Rhodes 22 (with some credit to the idiot at the helm) carried the day.  
> Carol even came back and sailed with me the following weekend!
> >
> > So Dennis, if you want to give the Rhodes another try, come on out 
> > to
> Massachusetts this season and sail with us on the Pinafore.  I don't 
> know if I'll get it together but I am scheduled to launch the first 
> week in May and the launch service continues 7 days a week from 8 am 
> to 9 pm until October 31.  We sail out of the Hingham Shipyard Marina 
> which leads to nicely protected waters and the lovely Boston Harbor 
> Islands.  Best weather is from July through September.  Let me know if and when you want to come.
> >
> >
> > *Thanks and Stay Well,*
> >
> > *Stephen Staum*
> > *s/v Pinafore*
> >
> > *Needham, MA*
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM Dennis McNeely <
> mcneelyd at site-solutions.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Salute Stephen -
> >> I'm on an island in the Detroit River - in Gibraltar, Michigan. I 
> >> really enjoyed my Rhodes 22, but then I met a lady who didn't deal 
> >> well with the boat when heeling - so now we have a trawler and I 
> >> sail a pair of Detroit Diesels. A bit of a bummer, but I'm still 
> >> out on the water, and she's happy with it!
> >> Dennis McNeely
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf 
> >> Of Stephen Staum
> >> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:15 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
> performance?
> >>
> >> Dennis that was a great comment.  In addition to performance, I 
> >> noticed years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the 
> >> boat sat stern low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill 
> >> causing the bow low condition).  It never filled on the mooring as 
> >> the boat normally sits with the bow lower.
> >> Where are you from Dennis?
> >>
> >>
> >> *Thanks and Stay Well,*
> >>
> >> *Stephen Staum*
> >> *s/v Pinafore*
> >>
> >> *Needham, MA*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely < 
> >> mcneelyd at site-solutions.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings all -
> >>> One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the 
> >>> bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter 
> >>> the force of the sails.
> >>> Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the 
> >>> sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways.
> >>> That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but 
> >>> it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow 
> >>> is too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, 
> >>> trying to balance your rig is a non-starter.
> >>> Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is 
> >>> riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because 
> >>> you won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the 
> >>> force of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance 
> >>> (the spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind).
> >>> The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become.
> >>> Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf 
> >>> Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
> performance?
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> Here’s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake.
> >>> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, 
> >>> establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as 
> >>> good as
> possible.
> >>> Take note of how much weather helm you have.  Assuming you have 
> >>> the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches.
> >>> Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as 
> >>> good as possible.  You should now have less weather helm or maybe 
> >>> neutral or even lee helm.  Keep reducing mainsail area until you 
> >>> have eliminated
> >> all the weather helm.
> >>>
> >>> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of 
> >>> the
> rig.
> >>> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air.
> >>> As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no 
> >>> matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail.  I 
> >>> won’t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric 
> >>> wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates 
> >>> weather helm.  You counter this tendency towards weather helm by 
> >>> reducing mainsail area.  This moves the rig’s center of effort 
> >>> forward and reduces
> weather helm.
> >>> You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can 
> >>> keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to 
> >>> balance the
> >> helm.
> >>>
> >>> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how 
> >>> the rig is tuned.  The easiest point of reference is to have the 
> >>> rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman.  So, 
> >>> even though the helmsman isn’t getting any feedback thru the 
> >>> tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat 
> >>> will go straight.  As the wind strength builds and sail area is 
> >>> not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm 
> >>> will build.  The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru 
> >>> the tiller.  If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the 
> >>> mainsail area can always be reduced to take
> >> the pressure off the tiller.
> >>> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing 
> >>> amount of drag.  This slows the boat down and reduces pointing 
> >>> ability.  Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller 
> >>> is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, 
> >>> centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the 
> >>> required
> >> lift for the boat to be able to point.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
> >>>
> >>> Sent from Mail<
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.m
> icrosoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=05%7C01%7Crlowe%40
> vt.edu%7C937ffb06bb7d45fe1f7d08da29e2a818%7C6095688410ad40fa863d4f32c1
> e3a37a%7C0%7C0%7C637868350716881853%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC
> 4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%
> 7C&sdata=j%2FnCpoI%2F8LDNR8eLwt9MQJr2wgYMJvyxpAJJOwKJDtQ%3D&re
> served=0>
> for
> >>> Windows
> >>>
> >>> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
> performance?
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> A couple of things to check:
> >>>
> >>> 1.   Is your centerboard all the way down?
> >>>
> >>> 2.  Is your rudder blade all the way down?
> >>>
> >>> 3.  In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and 
> >>> traveler to center the boom.  Make certain the boom is not rising 
> >>> up and there isn’t too much curl on the leech.  Make certain the 
> >>> mainsail foot out haul is tight.  Without battens, there is only 
> >>> so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up 
> >>> to do the best that is
> >> possible.
> >>>
> >>> 4.  Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay.
> >>> It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the
> forestay sag.
> >>> Don’t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster.  A mast head 
> >>> rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly 
> >>> form an efficient slot with the mainsail.
> >>>
> >>> 5.  Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the 
> >>> tension in the standing rigging.
> >>>
> >>> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big 
> >>> sailing dingy, as upright as possible.  There should be zero to 
> >>> very slight weather helm.  If you have too much weather helm; then 
> >>> reduce the
> >> mast rake angle.
> >>> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck.
> >>>
> >>> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot 
> >>> of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather.
> >>>
> >>> Hopefully, these suggestions help.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm 
> >>>> starting to focus on getting the best performance out of her.
> >>>> While I mostly sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and 
> >>>> want to be more competitive.  In particular, I have found that 
> >>>> she does not go to
> >>> windward very well for me.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail.  Until very recently, I 
> >>>> have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and 
> >>>> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa.
> >>>> Consequently, I can only tack through about 100-120o.
> >>>>
> >>>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer 
> >>>> shrouds and the inner shrouds.  That definitely improved my 
> >>>> pointing ability significantly at the expense of less than 
> >>>> optimal headsail shape on some off wind points of sail.  However, 
> >>>> this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to wind 
> >>>> strength and whether or not I am partially reefed.  I think this 
> >>>> will retain the ability to use a whisker
> >>> pole on downwind legs.
> >>>>
> >>>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat 
> >>>> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a 
> >>>> second set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to 
> >>>> switch between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo).  
> >>>> Also, those options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting 
> >>>> angle to the clew with the
> >>> jib cars.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you 
> >>>> have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike McKay
> >>>> s/v Liber (2006/2018)
> >>>> Allatoona Lake
> >>>> Acworth, GA
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>