[Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

Tue Mar 22 22:45:23 EDT 2022

 Mike,
Our Rhodes came with a working jib as well as the 150 Genoa.
I replaced our jib sheets and route the new ones outside the upper shrouds.  I then "re-purposed" the old ones and route them outside of the forward lower, and inside the rear lower.  I attached snap hooks to make switching the sheets easier, but they do occasionally hang up on the shrouds.
Don Simons,  Ithaca, NY   
    On Tuesday, March 22, 2022, 12:38:01 PM EDT, <mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com> wrote:  

 Roger,

Thanks again for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully.

1) My jib cars are all the way forward.  I agree that the jib tracks don't provide the proper range of positions with the 130% genoa.  In regards to optimum jib size for the Rhodes 22, I had posted that question to the forum before I bought my Rhodes, and there seemed to be some consensus that a 130 was the best compromise.  I would like to sail a boat with one of the larger sails, but I imagine they would be harder to tack in light air (typical of my area), although having more sail area would also be beneficial.  My genoa has telltales without windows, but in most cases you can easily see the leeward telltale through the sail.  Because of the limitations imposed by the jib tracks, I have limited control over the twist in the headsail.  

If you had it to do over again, would you stay with the 150 genoa or go with a different size?

2) I hadn’t realized that there is a factory option for additional jib tracks.  I will check with Stan regarding those, but I suspect the installation process would be non-trivial.  Based on your comments, it also seems that they would only be useful when I partially furl the sail in heavier wind and wouldn't help give me better sheeting options with the full sail.

3) I am slightly familiar with barber haulers.  They are generally used off the wind to help hold the clew further outboard with less twist than would be possible with the inboard jib fairleads.  I have thought about how to install a barber hauler on my Rhodes but haven't attempted it.

4) My mainsail is definitely fully unfurled.  The outhaul allows me to pull it out within a couple of inches of the end of the boom.  I also have concerns about the position of the draft--it also seemed too far aft to me, but the Rhodes running rigging doesn't give one much control over that.  Has anyone ever tried using a Cunningham with the IMF sail?  Would that be potentially dangerous?

5) My main does have a leech line, which is fully eased.  The sailmaker speculated that a prior owner had tightened it too much for too long which may be why it is permanently cupped.  I'm beginning to see that a new main could be required to solve multiple issues.  By the way, I had tightened the outhaul because the wind gusts had picked up quite a bit--it started out much looser.  Your discussion about the "groove" is spot on.

6) Finally, have you or anyone else tried routing the jib sheets between the shrouds as I described?  For me it was a positive change, but it seems I have other issues that need to be addressed to improve my windward performance.

Thanks Roger!

Mike McKay
s/v Liber (2006/2018)
Allatoona Lake
Acworth, GA

-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

Mike,

OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words.  As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail.  With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track.  It’s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track.

My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa.  Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me.  At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks.  These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse.  It’s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks.  The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option.  Check with Stan.

Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don’t have inboard sheeting car positions.  I have no experience with these.  Check the sailing literature.

Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa’s luff?  My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim.  You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind.  Once you’ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it’s got at that % of the genoa unfurled.  Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa.

But, here is what’s confusing me:

At 130%, your boat has a smaller than “normal” genoa.  Most Rhodes 22’s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa.  So, with a “small” genoa, why does your boat have lee helm?  Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled?  Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom?  If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there?

In the picture, I can’t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim.  The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions.  If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the “groove” narrower for the helmsman.  The “groove” is the range of “acceptable” wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails.  A narrow “groove” makes the helmsman’s job more difficult because it’s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range.  But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it’s hard to say for sure.  Maybe that’s just the best your IMF mainsail can do.

Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it?  Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl.  You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more.

Other than that, I’m running out of suggestions.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

________________________________
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

Mike,

If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay.  If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay.  If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Roger,
>
> Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions.
>
> My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets.  As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds.  This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline.  I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance.  I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.)  Attached is a picture I took.  The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle.
>
> My boat always has moderate to light lee helm.  I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far.  I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more.
>
> I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape.  Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech.  My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance.  I'm not so sure--what does the community think?
>
> Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting.  I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette.  That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy.  Has anyone ever attempted that?
>
> Anyway, this is a great conversation!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
> Mike McKay
> s/v Liber (2006/2018)
> Allatoona Lake
> Acworth, GA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
>
> Mike,
>
> Here’s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake.  Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible.  Take note of how much weather helm you have.  Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches.  Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible.  You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm.  Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm.
>
> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig.  I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air.  As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail.  I won’t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm.  You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area.  This moves the rig’s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm.  You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm.
>
> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned.  The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman.  So, even though the helmsman isn’t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight.  As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build.  The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller.  If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller.  Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag.  This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability.  Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
>
> Sent from Mail<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1722347e114a405a1dd408da0bb19116%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637835154533616752%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i03zuWfrmxj7Br%2BRAGHRIAfaeA9YOHda7le1ow4t4Ao%3D&reserved=0> for Windows
>
> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
>
> Mike,
>
> A couple of things to check:
>
> 1.  Is your centerboard all the way down?
>
> 2.  Is your rudder blade all the way down?
>
> 3.  In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom.  Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn’t too much curl on the leech.  Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight.  Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible.
>
> 4.  Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay.  It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag.  Don’t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster.  A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail.
>
> 5.  Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging.
>
> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible.  There should be zero to very slight weather helm.  If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle.  ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck.
>
> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather.
>
> Hopefully, these suggestions help.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus
>> on getting the best performance out of her.  While I mostly sail for fun, I
>> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive.  In
>> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me.
>>
>>
>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail.  Until very recently, I have been
>> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That
>> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through
>> about 100-120o.
>>
>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the
>> inner shrouds.  That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly
>> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points
>> of sail.  However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to
>> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed.  I think this will
>> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs.
>>
>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives
>> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and
>> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark
>> (I often race solo).  Also, those options eliminate the ability to control
>> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars.
>>
>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have
>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Mike McKay
>> s/v Liber (2006/2018)
>> Allatoona Lake
>> Acworth, GA
>>
>>
>
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