[Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes
Michael Meltzer
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:48:34 -0400
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it is, I found a web page on writing for the audience, one had the =
"standard" method vs. the engineer method :-) They claim it good cookies =
MJM
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes
Michael,
Sounds like chocolate chip cookies?
Roger
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Michael Meltzer=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes
thought you would like this Recipe :-)
MJM
Materials:
1.. 532.35 cm3 gluten=20
2.. 4.9 cm3 NaHCO3=20
3.. 4.9 cm3 refined halite=20
4.. 236.6 cm3 partially hydrogenated tallow triglyceride=20
5.. 177.45 cm3 crystalline C12H22O11=20
6.. 177.45 cm3 unrefined C12H22O11=20
7.. 4.9 cm3 methyl ether of protocatechuic aldehyde=20
8.. 2.0 CaCO3 encapsulated avian albumen-coated protein=20
9.. 473.2 cm3 theobroma cacoa=20
10.. 236.6 cm3 de-encapsulated juglans regia fruits (sieve size =
10)=20
Procedure:
To a 2-L jacketed round reactor vessel (reactor #1) with an overall =
heat transfer coefficient of about 100 Btu/=B0F-ft2-hr, add ingredients =
(1), (2), and (3) with consistent agitation. In a second 2-L reactor =
vessel (reactor #2) with a radial flow impeller operating at 100 rpm, =
add ingredients (4), (5), (6), and (7), processing until the mixture is =
homogenous. Add to ingredients in reactor #2, ingredient (8) and three =
volumetrically equal portions of the homogenous mixture in reactor #1, =
processing after each addition until the mixture is again homogenous. =
Upon completion of the previous step, add ingredients (9) and (10), =
slowly with constant agitation at an impeller rate of 50 rpm. Care must =
be taken at this point in the reaction to control any temperature rise =
that may be the result of an exothermic reaction.=20
Using a screw extrude attached to a #4 nodulizer, place 10.0 cm3 =
nodules of the mixture in ordered ranks on a 316SS sheet (30.0 cm X 60.0 =
cm). Heat in a 460=B0K oven for a period of time that is in agreement =
with Frank & Johnson's first order rate expression (see JACOS, 21, 55), =
or until golden brown.
Once the reaction is complete, place the sheet on a 297=B0K =
heat-transfer table, allowing the product to come to thermal equilibrium =
with ambient atmospheric temperature.
WARNING:=20
These procedures are designed for trained processionals; don't try =
this at home.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Toad the Wet Sprocket=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes
Roger, =20
I very much appreciate the information you posted on the =
Rhodes list server. I was only joking around about the banana and tape =
measure remarks. I know absolutely zero about tuning a sailing rig, =
but I do know from reading the posts on other discussion boards that the =
subject is as heated as religion or politics. That is why I made a joke. =
I am not an engineer but I was an aircraft mechanic by trade and I, as I =
am certain that you do, take a perfectionist's approach to all things =
mechanical. =20
I will try to keep my joking to a minimum in the future =
especially because it is most times impossible for a reader to tell when =
I am goofing around.
Your later posts did help as well by illustrating the reasons =
for the higher tension on the forward lower shrouds. Now I have a =
clearer picture of some of the dynamics involved in rig tuning and along =
with your advice I will do my own trials to find settings that suit my =
sailing style/ability and conditions.
Again, let me apologize for making a joke at your expense. I =
did not intend to anger you' especially to the point that you'd refrain =
from future postings. My joking often gets me in trouble, but that's =
just who I am.
Todd
P.S. What was the ambient temperature when you tuned your rig?? =
(joke) Do you still have your original sails and if so, do you want to =
sell them?
Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com=20
From: "Roger Pihlaja"=20
Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
To:=20
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes=20
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:07:16 -0400=20
Dear Toad,=20
First of all, I'm an engineer & I've owned my Rhodes 22 since the =
spring of 1987. Stan @ GBI will never be this specific with rig tuning =
specs. It's just not his nature. Early on, I purchased a Loo's tension =
gage, started doing experiments, making measurements, & racing my boat. =
The specs I gave you are the lowest static tension settings that yield =
the desired dynamic behavior in the sailing rig. By the way, totalling =
up the lbs of tension in the standing rigging doesn't tell you very =
much. Each stay is loaded individually. The ultimate tensile strength of =
those 5/32" OD, 1 X 19, 316 stainless steel wires is on the order of =
2800 lbs. At 600 lbs max tension on the loaded windward upper sidestay, =
my suggested rig tension settings leave a safety factor of more than 4X. =
The only part of the standing wire rigging I've upgraded was my =
forestay wire to 3/16" OD, which has an ultimate tensile strength of =
about 4000 lbs. I did this wire size upgrade when I replaced my OEM =
standard roller furler to a Harken Unit 0. 3/16" OD wire in the forestay =
is probably overkill. But, 3/16" OD was the largest standard size =
available for the Harken Unit 0. I had to replace the forestay anyway as =
part of the installation, there was no good reason not to upgrade, & it =
seemed like cheap insurance.=20
The breaking strength of the wires & the swaged terminals are the =
limiting factors. The chainplates can hold much more than the rest of =
the rig. You could confidently lift the entire boat suspended from the =
upper side chainplates. They don't need to be upgraded.=20
The mast compression post is only loaded to a small fraction of =
its buckling strength. Don't worry about it.=20
Look on page 970 of the WEST Marine 2002 Master catalog for a =
Loo's tension gage. You would need to order a Loo's model 91A or PT1.=20
As I said in my post, I was trying to use the image of the ends of =
the hull bending upward like a "22 foot long banana" under rig stress as =
a "greatly exagerated" illustration of the effects involved. The real =
hull deflection is subtle, certainly not observable without precision =
measurement instruments.=20
Since I suggested adjusting the length of the forestay in 1/2" =
increments to adjust your weather helm/lee helm balance, if you measure =
the forestay length to 1/4 of that increment, or 1/8" accuracy, that =
will be sufficient resolution. You are quite correct, I had too many =
significant figures in my forestay length spec. It should have read =
333-5/8".=20
Criticize me if you wish, but did anyone else give you anything =
but qualitative descriptions of rig tuning? Why don't you try my rig =
tuning procedure & see what you think?=20
Roger Pihlaja=20
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Toad the Wet Sprocket=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:30 PM=20
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes=20
Roger,=20
So you have a total of 1800lbs of tension on all of your shrouds, =
not to mention the fore/backstay tension? Where did you come up with all =
of these figures? Are these the specs from Stan and the guys at GB? This =
all seems like quite a strain on the chain plates and alot of =
compression down through the mast into the hull.=20
Did you replace your rigging with larger cables or beef up the =
chain plate mountings?=20
Where can one buy the guage you have and a tape measure that =
measures to three decimal places? Is my boat supposed to bend up at the =
ends like a 22 foot banana too?=20
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was in a goofy mood today. Honestly, =
where did you get these specs?=20
Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com=20
From: "Roger Pihlaja"=20
Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
To:=20
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension=20
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:56:38 -0400=20
Jack,=20
Here's a copy of the rig tuning procedure I use:=20
The 1st thing you want to do is measure the length of the forestay =
on center=20
from pin-to-pin. On my 1976, standard mainsail, Rhodes 22, this =
measurement=20
is 333.625 inches. Write this number down because it is very =
important.=20
If your forestay length is more than a couple of inches different =
than this,=20
you might want to reset it 333.625 inches as a reasonable starting =
point.=20
Now step the mast. Take the excess slack out of the forestay & =
backstays=20
with the backstay adjuster. You don't want things real tight at =
this point.=20
All upper & lower sidestays should be slack. Go to the base of the =
mast,=20
pull a halyard taut along the mast & sight up the mast from the =
rear & from=20
the side. Any deviation from a straight mast will show up as a gap =
between=20
the mast & the halyard. There should be no observable bend or =
bowing in the=20
mast. If there is, the mast may have been dropped & bent at some =
point or=20
may have some other problem. You should call Stan at GBI & he will =
be able=20
to help you work out your problem.=20
I like to use a Loo's tension gage. The model 91 is the =
appropriate range=20
for the Rhodes 22. Remember to always measure the tension at the =
same=20
relative position on each shroud every time. On Dynamic =
Equilibrium, I=20
have marked these measurement points with little spots of paint on =
the=20
wire right at my eye level.=20
The upper sidestays are adjusted next. Raise a tape measure up the =
mast on=20
a halyard. Measure to the same point on each side of the boat. I =
like to=20
use the edge of the toerail right next to the sidestay. Tighten =
the=20
turnbuckles a little at a time on each side to adjust the upper =
sidestays=20
until both sides are the same length +/- 1/4" & tensioned to =
approximately=20
300 lbs +/- 5%. This procedure assures the top of the mast is =
centered in=20
the boat & the upper sidestays are tensioned equally port & =
starboard.=20
What you do next depends upon whether your boat has the IMF =
mainsail or a=20
conventional mainsail.=20
On an IMF mainsail boat, I would adjust the 4 lower sidestays so =
they were=20
all approximately the same tension. I would start with =
approximately 200=20
lbs +/- 5% on all 4 lowers. This is not a lot of shroud tension. =
Check for=20
mast straightness with the halyard again. You want the mast to be =
straight=20
in order for the IMF furling mechanism inside of it to be able to =
turn=20
without binding &/or excessive wear on the bearings. Minor bending =
or=20
bowing can be taken out with the lower sidestays. However, I would =
call=20
Stan at GBI if I couldn't get the mast to straighten out with a =
difference=20
of about +/- 15% on lower sidestay tension.=20
My Rhodes 22 has a conventional mainsail. I have a very roachy =
fully=20
battened mainsail which has been cut to respond to mast bend. I =
have my=20
backstay adjuster set-up to adjust quickly from the cockpit with =
calibration=20
marks on the line.=20
Tighten the turnbuckles equally & a little a time on each side to =
keep=20
things reasonably centered. I adjust the forward lower sidestays =
to 400 lbs=20
+/- 5% of tension, and the aft lower sidestays to 200 lbs +/- 5% =
of tension.=20
Then, check for mast straightness with the halyard. Believe it or =
not, the=20
standard mast on the Rhodes 22 is such a stiff telephone pole =
that, at 200=20
lbs differential tension on the lowers, there will be a barely =
detectable=20
fore/aft bend in the mast with no sails set & the backstay =
adjuster slack.=20
At 400 lbs of tension on the lower forward sidestays, when the =
backstay=20
adjuster is tensioned, primarily only the upper half of the mast =
is pulled=20
towards the stern. The forestay is tightened & the mast is bent at =
the same=20
time. Both actions are exactly what you want to obtain proper sail =
shape in=20
a high wind situation.=20
Now go out sailing. On a close hauled course, put up enough sail =
to heel=20
the boat over about 15-20 deg. Make certain the rudder blade & =
centerboard=20
are all the way down. On my Rhodes 22, the above tension settings =
cause the=20
mast to remain straight & more or less centered in the boat. The =
primary=20
thing to check is the upper sidestays. On my Rhodes 22 with the =
above=20
unloaded tension settings, at 15-20 deg of heel, the windward =
upper sidestay=20
should have about 450 lbs tension & the leeward upper sidestay =
should have=20
about 150 lbs of tension. I have my upper sidestays set-up such =
that the=20
leeward upper sidestay tension drops to 0 lbs at about 30 degrees =
of heel.=20
At this point, the windward upper sidestay will be under about 600 =
lbs=20
tension. Note, normally the stays are set-up to give proper shroud =
tension=20
& the correct amount of weather helm with full sail set. This =
tends to=20
limit the weather window in which you can do this sort of tuning.=20
When all sails are properly trimmed & the boat is "in the groove", =
there=20
should only a slight amount of weather helm. If there is a huge =
weather=20
helm, or neutral, or lee helm; then, you need to adjust the rake =
angle of=20
the mast. If you have neutral or lee helm; then increase the =
forestay=20
length. To get rid of excessive weather helm, shorten the =
forestay. The=20
balance of the boat is very sensitive to this mast rake angle, so =
change it=20
in increments of about 1/2" at a time. Note, a slight amount of =
weather=20
helm=20
is desirable because it provides feedback to the helmsman, thus =
allowing=20
him to steer a better course. Excessive weather helm tends to tire =
the=20
helmsman out.=20
Once I'm happy, I lock the adjustment in place by taping the lock =
nuts on=20
the turnbuckles. I find I only need to do this adjustment once. =
The=20
Rhodes 22 is such a strongly built little boat that nothing ever =
seems to=20
stretch or bend. I do check the side-to-side upper sidestay length =
at the=20
beginning of every season; but, it's never changed in the 13+ =
seasons I've=20
been measuring it. Trailering set-up only involves adjusting the =
lower=20
sidestays since the rest are not disturbed.=20
As far as rig tension settings on the trailer vs. off the trailer, =
I've=20
found the=20
only rig tension adjustment that significantly changes is the =
backstay=20
tension.=20
You can set the tension on the rest of the standing rigging =
according to the=20
above procedure on the trailer. It will be very close to optimum =
when you=20
get the boat in the water, certainly good enough to do the =
on-the-water=20
fine tuning described above.=20
FYI, I slack off on the backstay tension when Dynamic Equilibrium =
is not=20
being sailed. As I mentioned above, the backstay adjuster has =
sufficient=20
power to affect the shape of the hull. Greatly exaggerated, =
imagine the=20
ends=20
of the hull being pulled upward like a 22 foot long banana when =
the backstay=20
adjuster is tight! There is no sense leaving the hull & rig under =
that kind=20
of=20
stress when the boat is not being sailed.=20
Jack, I hope this description of rig tuning helps you. Good luck!=20
Roger Pihlaja=20
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jack Goldberg"=20
To:=20
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:47 PM=20
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension=20
> This list has been helpful in the past, so I'll come to the =
trough of=20
> knowledge to feed again.=20
> I noted with interest the thread about the mast plate bolts =
coming loose=20
and=20
> the response with regard to the tension of the shrouds. My 84' =
has a=20
> standard main. When I bought the boat this spring, the shrouds =
were very=20
> loose (obout 3 inches of play from side to side at about 3 feet =
from the=20
> deck. The guy I bought the boat from said that was OK, but now =
I'm=20
worried.=20
> Is there a spec' on how tight (or loose) the shrouds should be =
under no=20
> load?=20
>=20
> Jack Goldberg,=20
>=20
> =
_________________________________________________________________=20
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:=20
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx=20
>=20
> _______________________________________=20
> Subscribers, send mail to this address =
Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
> To change your options or unsubscribe from the list click on =
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our=20
> FAQ pages at http://www.geocities.com/blew_skies/topics.html=20
> http://www.sailnet.com/ -Where Sailors Get It! =
http://www.rhodes22.org=20
>=20
_______________________________________=20
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To change your options or unsubscribe from the list click on this =
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http://www.sailnet.com/ -Where Sailors Get It! =
http://www.rhodes22.org=20
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it is, I found a web page on writing =
for the=20
audience, one had the "standard" method vs. the engineer method :-) =
They=20
claim it good cookies </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MJM</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 22, 2002 =
6:40=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
shroud=20
tension jokes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Michael,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sounds like chocolate chip =
cookies?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dmjm@michaelmeltzer.com =
href=3D"mailto:mjm@michaelmeltzer.com">Michael=20
Meltzer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 22, =
2002 12:11=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
shroud=20
tension jokes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>thought you would like this Recipe =
:-)</FONT></P>
<P>MJM</P>
<P><B><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4></FONT></B> </P>
<P><B><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Materials:<BR></P></FONT></B>
<OL>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>532.35 cm<SUP>3</SUP> gluten</FONT>=20
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>4.9 cm<SUP>3</SUP> NaHCO<SUB>3</SUB></FONT> =
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>4.9 cm<SUP>3</SUP> refined halite</FONT>=20
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>236.6 cm<SUP>3</SUP> partially hydrogenated =
tallow=20
triglyceride</FONT>=20
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>177.45 cm<SUP>3</SUP> crystalline=20
C<SUB>12</SUB>H<SUB>22</SUB>O<SUB>11</SUB> </FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>177.45 cm<SUP>3</SUP> unrefined=20
C<SUB>12</SUB>H<SUB>22</SUB>O<SUB>11</SUB> </FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>4.9 cm<SUP>3</SUP> methyl ether of =
protocatechuic=20
aldehyde</FONT>=20
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>2.0 CaCO<SUB>3</SUB> encapsulated avian=20
albumen-coated protein</FONT>=20
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>473.2 cm<SUP>3</SUP> theobroma cacoa</FONT> =
<LI><FONT face=3DArial>236.6 cm<SUP>3</SUP> de-encapsulated =
<I>juglans=20
regia</I> fruits (sieve size 10)</FONT> </LI></OL>
<P><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>
<P><B><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Procedure:<BR></FONT></B>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>To a 2-L jacketed round reactor vessel =
(reactor #1) with=20
an overall heat transfer coefficient of about 100 =
Btu/=B0F-ft<SUP>2</SUP>-hr,=20
add ingredients (1), (2), and (3) with consistent agitation. In a =
second 2-L=20
reactor vessel (reactor #2) with a radial flow impeller operating at =
100=20
rpm, add ingredients (4), (5), (6), and (7), processing until the =
mixture is=20
homogenous. Add to ingredients in reactor #2, ingredient (8) and =
three=20
volumetrically equal portions of the homogenous mixture in reactor =
#1,=20
processing after each addition until the mixture is again =
homogenous. Upon=20
completion of the previous step, add ingredients (9) and (10), =
slowly with=20
constant agitation at an impeller rate of 50 rpm. Care must be taken =
at this=20
point in the reaction to control any temperature rise that may be =
the result=20
of an exothermic reaction. <BR></FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Using a screw extrude attached to a #4 =
nodulizer, place=20
10.0 cm<SUP>3</SUP> nodules of the mixture in ordered ranks on a =
316SS sheet=20
(30.0 cm X 60.0 cm). Heat in a 460=B0K oven for a period of time =
that is in=20
agreement with Frank & Johnson's first order rate expression =
(see JACOS,=20
21, 55), or until golden brown.<BR></FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Once the reaction is complete, place the sheet =
on a=20
297=B0K heat-transfer table, allowing the product to come to thermal =
equilibrium with ambient atmospheric temperature.<BR></FONT>
<P><B><FONT face=3DArial>WARNING: <BR></FONT></B>
<P align=3Dcenter text=3D"#ff0000"><B><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>These procedures=20
are designed for trained processionals; don't try this at =
home.</FONT></B>=20
</P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsprocket80@hotmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com">Toad=20
the Wet Sprocket</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 22, =
2002 8:40=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] shroud=20
tension jokes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><BR><BR></P>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Roger, </P></DIV>
<P> I very much appreciate the =
information=20
you posted on the Rhodes list server. I was only joking =
around about=20
the banana and tape measure remarks. I know absolutely =
zero=20
about tuning a sailing rig, but I do know from reading the posts=20
on other discussion boards that the subject is as heated as =
religion=20
or politics. That is why I made a joke. I am not an =
engineer but I was an aircraft mechanic by trade and I, as I =
am=20
certain that you do, take a perfectionist's approach to all things =
mechanical. </P></DIV>
<P> I will try to keep my joking to a =
minimum in=20
the future especially because it is most times impossible for a =
reader to=20
tell when I am goofing around.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> Your later posts did help as well by=20
illustrating the reasons for the higher tension on the forward =
lower=20
shrouds. Now I have a clearer picture of some of the =
dynamics=20
involved in rig tuning and along with your advice I will do my own =
trials=20
to find settings that suit my sailing style/ability and=20
conditions.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> Again, let me apologize for making a =
joke at=20
your expense. I did not intend to anger you' especially to =
the point=20
that you'd refrain from future postings. My joking often =
gets me in=20
trouble, but that's just who I am.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Todd</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>P.S. What was the ambient temperature when you tuned your =
rig?? (joke) Do you still have your original =
sails and=20
if so, do you want to sell them?</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><BR><BR><BR><BR></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "Roger Pihlaja" <CEN09402@CENTURYTEL.NET>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To: <RHODES22-LIST@RHODES22.ORG>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:07:16 -0400=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Dear Toad,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>First of all, I'm an engineer & I've owned my =
Rhodes 22=20
since the spring of 1987. Stan @ GBI will never be this specific =
with rig=20
tuning specs. It's just not his nature. Early on, I purchased a =
Loo's=20
tension gage, started doing experiments, making measurements, =
& racing=20
my boat. The specs I gave you are the lowest static tension =
settings that=20
yield the desired dynamic behavior in the sailing rig. By the way, =
totalling up the lbs of tension in the standing rigging doesn't =
tell you=20
very much. Each stay is loaded individually. The ultimate tensile =
strength=20
of those 5/32" OD, 1 X 19, 316 stainless steel wires is on the =
order of=20
2800 lbs. At 600 lbs max tension on the loaded windward upper =
sidestay, my=20
suggested rig tension settings leave a safety factor of more than =
4X.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>The only part of the standing wire rigging I've =
upgraded was my=20
forestay wire to 3/16" OD, which has an ultimate tensile strength =
of about=20
4000 lbs. I did this wire size upgrade when I replaced my OEM =
standard=20
roller furler to a Harken Unit 0. 3/16" OD wire in the forestay is =
probably overkill. But, 3/16" OD was the largest standard size =
available=20
for the Harken Unit 0. I had to replace the forestay anyway as =
part of the=20
installation, there was no good reason not to upgrade, & it =
seemed=20
like cheap insurance.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>The breaking strength of the wires & the swaged =
terminals=20
are the limiting factors. The chainplates can hold much more than =
the rest=20
of the rig. You could confidently lift the entire boat suspended =
from the=20
upper side chainplates. They don't need to be upgraded.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>The mast compression post is only loaded to a small =
fraction of=20
its buckling strength. Don't worry about it.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Look on page 970 of the WEST Marine 2002 Master catalog =
for a=20
Loo's tension gage. You would need to order a Loo's model 91A or =
PT1.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>As I said in my post, I was trying to use the image of =
the ends=20
of the hull bending upward like a "22 foot long banana" under rig =
stress=20
as a "greatly exagerated" illustration of the effects involved. =
The real=20
hull deflection is subtle, certainly not observable without =
precision=20
measurement instruments.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Since I suggested adjusting the length of the forestay =
in 1/2"=20
increments to adjust your weather helm/lee helm balance, if you =
measure=20
the forestay length to 1/4 of that increment, or 1/8" accuracy, =
that will=20
be sufficient resolution. You are quite correct, I had too many=20
significant figures in my forestay length spec. It should have =
read=20
333-5/8".=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Criticize me if you wish, but did anyone else give you =
anything=20
but qualitative descriptions of rig tuning? Why don't you try my =
rig=20
tuning procedure & see what you think?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Roger Pihlaja=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: Toad the Wet Sprocket=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:30 PM=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Roger,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>So you have a total of 1800lbs of tension on all of =
your=20
shrouds, not to mention the fore/backstay tension? Where did you =
come up=20
with all of these figures? Are these the specs from Stan and the =
guys at=20
GB? This all seems like quite a strain on the chain plates and =
alot of=20
compression down through the mast into the hull.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Did you replace your rigging with larger cables or beef =
up the=20
chain plate mountings?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Where can one buy the guage you have and a tape measure =
that=20
measures to three decimal places? Is my boat supposed to bend up =
at the=20
ends like a 22 foot banana too?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was in a goofy mood today.=20
Honestly, where did you get these specs?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "Roger Pihlaja"=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:56:38 -0400=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Jack,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Here's a copy of the rig tuning procedure I use:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>The 1st thing you want to do is measure the length of =
the=20
forestay on center=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>from pin-to-pin. On my 1976, standard mainsail, Rhodes =
22, this=20
measurement=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>is 333.625 inches. Write this number down because it is =
very=20
important.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>If your forestay length is more than a couple of inches =
different than this,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>you might want to reset it 333.625 inches as a =
reasonable=20
starting point.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Now step the mast. Take the excess slack out of the =
forestay=20
& backstays=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>with the backstay adjuster. You don't want things real =
tight at=20
this point.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>All upper & lower sidestays should be slack. Go to =
the base=20
of the mast,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>pull a halyard taut along the mast & sight up the =
mast from=20
the rear & from=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>the side. Any deviation from a straight mast will show =
up as a=20
gap between=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>the mast & the halyard. There should be no =
observable bend=20
or bowing in the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>mast. If there is, the mast may have been dropped & =
bent at=20
some point or=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>may have some other problem. You should call Stan at =
GBI &=20
he will be able=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>to help you work out your problem.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>I like to use a Loo's tension gage. The model 91 is the =
appropriate range=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>for the Rhodes 22. Remember to always measure the =
tension at=20
the same=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>relative position on each shroud every time. On Dynamic =
Equilibrium, I=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>have marked these measurement points with little spots =
of paint=20
on the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>wire right at my eye level.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>The upper sidestays are adjusted next. Raise a tape =
measure up=20
the mast on=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>a halyard. Measure to the same point on each side of =
the boat.=20
I like to=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>use the edge of the toerail right next to the sidestay. =
Tighten=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>turnbuckles a little at a time on each side to adjust =
the upper=20
sidestays=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>until both sides are the same length +/- 1/4" & =
tensioned=20
to approximately=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>300 lbs +/- 5%. This procedure assures the top of the =
mast is=20
centered in=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>the boat & the upper sidestays are tensioned =
equally port=20
& starboard.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>What you do next depends upon whether your boat has the =
IMF=20
mainsail or a=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>conventional mainsail.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>On an IMF mainsail boat, I would adjust the 4 lower =
sidestays=20
so they were=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>all approximately the same tension. I would start with=20
approximately 200=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>lbs +/- 5% on all 4 lowers. This is not a lot of shroud =
tension. Check for=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>mast straightness with the halyard again. You want the =
mast to=20
be straight=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>in order for the IMF furling mechanism inside of it to =
be able=20
to turn=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>without binding &/or excessive wear on the =
bearings. Minor=20
bending or=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>bowing can be taken out with the lower sidestays. =
However, I=20
would call=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Stan at GBI if I couldn't get the mast to straighten =
out with a=20
difference=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>of about +/- 15% on lower sidestay tension.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>My Rhodes 22 has a conventional mainsail. I have a very =
roachy=20
fully=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>battened mainsail which has been cut to respond to mast =
bend. I=20
have my=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>backstay adjuster set-up to adjust quickly from the =
cockpit=20
with calibration=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>marks on the line.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Tighten the turnbuckles equally & a little a time =
on each=20
side to keep=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>things reasonably centered. I adjust the forward lower=20
sidestays to 400 lbs=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>+/- 5% of tension, and the aft lower sidestays to 200 =
lbs +/-=20
5% of tension.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Then, check for mast straightness with the halyard. =
Believe it=20
or not, the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>standard mast on the Rhodes 22 is such a stiff =
telephone pole=20
that, at 200=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>lbs differential tension on the lowers, there will be a =
barely=20
detectable=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>fore/aft bend in the mast with no sails set & the =
backstay=20
adjuster slack.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>At 400 lbs of tension on the lower forward sidestays, =
when the=20
backstay=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>adjuster is tensioned, primarily only the upper half of =
the=20
mast is pulled=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>towards the stern. The forestay is tightened & the =
mast is=20
bent at the same=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>time. Both actions are exactly what you want to obtain =
proper=20
sail shape in=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>a high wind situation.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Now go out sailing. On a close hauled course, put up =
enough=20
sail to heel=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>the boat over about 15-20 deg. Make certain the rudder =
blade=20
& centerboard=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>are all the way down. On my Rhodes 22, the above =
tension=20
settings cause the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>mast to remain straight & more or less centered in =
the=20
boat. The primary=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>thing to check is the upper sidestays. On my Rhodes 22 =
with the=20
above=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>unloaded tension settings, at 15-20 deg of heel, the =
windward=20
upper sidestay=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>should have about 450 lbs tension & the leeward =
upper=20
sidestay should have=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>about 150 lbs of tension. I have my upper sidestays =
set-up such=20
that the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>leeward upper sidestay tension drops to 0 lbs at about =
30=20
degrees of heel.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>At this point, the windward upper sidestay will be =
under about=20
600 lbs=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>tension. Note, normally the stays are set-up to give =
proper=20
shroud tension=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>& the correct amount of weather helm with full sail =
set.=20
This tends to=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>limit the weather window in which you can do this sort =
of=20
tuning.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>When all sails are properly trimmed & the boat is =
"in the=20
groove", there=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>should only a slight amount of weather helm. If there =
is a huge=20
weather=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>helm, or neutral, or lee helm; then, you need to adjust =
the=20
rake angle of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>the mast. If you have neutral or lee helm; then =
increase the=20
forestay=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>length. To get rid of excessive weather helm, shorten =
the=20
forestay. The=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>balance of the boat is very sensitive to this mast rake =
angle,=20
so change it=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>in increments of about 1/2" at a time. Note, a slight =
amount of=20
weather=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>helm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>is desirable because it provides feedback to the =
helmsman, thus=20
allowing=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>him to steer a better course. Excessive weather helm =
tends to=20
tire the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>helmsman out.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Once I'm happy, I lock the adjustment in place by =
taping the=20
lock nuts on=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>the turnbuckles. I find I only need to do this =
adjustment once.=20
The=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Rhodes 22 is such a strongly built little boat that =
nothing=20
ever seems to=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>stretch or bend. I do check the side-to-side upper =
sidestay=20
length at the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>beginning of every season; but, it's never changed in =
the 13+=20
seasons I've=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>been measuring it. Trailering set-up only involves =
adjusting=20
the lower=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>sidestays since the rest are not disturbed.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>As far as rig tension settings on the trailer vs. off =
the=20
trailer, I've=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>found the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>only rig tension adjustment that significantly changes =
is the=20
backstay=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>tension.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You can set the tension on the rest of the standing =
rigging=20
according to the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>above procedure on the trailer. It will be very close =
to=20
optimum when you=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>get the boat in the water, certainly good enough to do =
the=20
on-the-water=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>fine tuning described above.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>FYI, I slack off on the backstay tension when Dynamic=20
Equilibrium is not=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>being sailed. As I mentioned above, the backstay =
adjuster has=20
sufficient=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>power to affect the shape of the hull. Greatly =
exaggerated,=20
imagine the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>ends=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>of the hull being pulled upward like a 22 foot long =
banana when=20
the backstay=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>adjuster is tight! There is no sense leaving the hull =
& rig=20
under that kind=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>stress when the boat is not being sailed.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Jack, I hope this description of rig tuning helps you. =
Good=20
luck!=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Roger Pihlaja=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "Jack Goldberg"=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:47 PM=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> This list has been helpful in the past, so I'll =
come to=20
the trough of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> knowledge to feed again.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> I noted with interest the thread about the mast =
plate=20
bolts coming loose=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> the response with regard to the tension of the =
shrouds. My=20
84' has a=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> standard main. When I bought the boat this spring, =
the=20
shrouds were very=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> loose (obout 3 inches of play from side to side at =
about 3=20
feet from the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> deck. The guy I bought the boat from said that was =
OK, but=20
now I'm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>worried.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Is there a spec' on how tight (or loose) the =
shrouds=20
should be under no=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> load?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Jack Goldberg,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
_________________________________________________________________=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print =
your=20
photos:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> _______________________________________=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Subscribers, send mail to this address=20
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