[Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes

Steve rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Fri, 23 Aug 2002 05:48:57 -0700 (PDT)


Only Michael would know of a web page like that:-)
Steve

--- Michael Meltzer <mjm@michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
> it is, I found a web page on writing for the
> audience, one had the "standard" method vs. the
> engineer method :-) They claim it good cookies 
> 
> MJM
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Roger Pihlaja 
>   To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org 
>   Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:40 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension jokes
> 
> 
>   Michael,
> 
>   Sounds like chocolate chip cookies?
> 
>   Roger
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: Michael Meltzer 
>     To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org 
>     Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:11 PM
>     Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension
> jokes
> 
> 
>     thought you would like this Recipe :-)
> 
>     MJM
> 
> 
> 
>     Materials:
> 
> 
>       1.. 532.35 cm3 gluten 
>       2.. 4.9 cm3 NaHCO3 
>       3.. 4.9 cm3 refined halite 
>       4.. 236.6 cm3 partially hydrogenated tallow
> triglyceride 
>       5.. 177.45 cm3 crystalline C12H22O11 
>       6.. 177.45 cm3 unrefined C12H22O11 
>       7.. 4.9 cm3 methyl ether of protocatechuic
> aldehyde 
>       8.. 2.0 CaCO3 encapsulated avian
> albumen-coated protein 
>       9.. 473.2 cm3 theobroma cacoa 
>       10.. 236.6 cm3 de-encapsulated juglans regia
> fruits (sieve size 10) 
> 
>     Procedure:
> 
> 
>     To a 2-L jacketed round reactor vessel (reactor
> #1) with an overall heat transfer coefficient of
> about 100 Btu/F-ft2-hr, add ingredients (1), (2),
> and (3) with consistent agitation. In a second 2-L
> reactor vessel (reactor #2) with a radial flow
> impeller operating at 100 rpm, add ingredients (4),
> (5), (6), and (7), processing until the mixture is
> homogenous. Add to ingredients in reactor #2,
> ingredient (8) and three volumetrically equal
> portions of the homogenous mixture in reactor #1,
> processing after each addition until the mixture is
> again homogenous. Upon completion of the previous
> step, add ingredients (9) and (10), slowly with
> constant agitation at an impeller rate of 50 rpm.
> Care must be taken at this point in the reaction to
> control any temperature rise that may be the result
> of an exothermic reaction. 
> 
> 
>     Using a screw extrude attached to a #4
> nodulizer, place 10.0 cm3 nodules of the mixture in
> ordered ranks on a 316SS sheet (30.0 cm X 60.0 cm).
> Heat in a 460K oven for a period of time that is in
> agreement with Frank & Johnson's first order rate
> expression (see JACOS, 21, 55), or until golden
> brown.
> 
> 
>     Once the reaction is complete, place the sheet
> on a 297K heat-transfer table, allowing the product
> to come to thermal equilibrium with ambient
> atmospheric temperature.
> 
> 
>     WARNING: 
> 
> 
>     These procedures are designed for trained
> processionals; don't try this at home. 
> 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: Toad the Wet Sprocket 
>       To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org 
>       Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:40 AM
>       Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension
> jokes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       Roger,    
> 
>             I very much appreciate the information
> you posted on the Rhodes list server.  I was only
> joking around about the banana and tape measure
> remarks.   I know absolutely zero about tuning a
> sailing rig, but I do know from reading the posts on
> other discussion boards that the subject is as
> heated as religion or politics. That is why I made a
> joke. I am not an engineer but I was an aircraft
> mechanic by trade and I, as I am certain that you
> do, take a perfectionist's approach to all things
> mechanical.   
> 
>            I will try to keep my joking to a minimum
> in the future especially because it is most times
> impossible for a reader to tell when I am goofing
> around.
> 
>            Your later posts did help as well by
> illustrating the reasons for the higher tension on
> the forward lower shrouds.  Now I have a clearer
> picture of some of the dynamics involved in rig
> tuning and along with your advice I will do my own
> trials to find settings that suit my sailing
> style/ability and conditions.
> 
>            Again, let me apologize for making a joke
> at your expense.  I did not intend to anger you'
> especially to the point that you'd refrain from
> future postings.  My joking often gets me in
> trouble, but that's just who I am.
> 
>       Todd
> 
>       P.S.  What was the ambient temperature when
> you tuned your rig??   (joke)  Do you still have
> your original sails and if so, do you want to sell
> them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com 
>       From: "Roger Pihlaja" 
>       Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org 
>       To: 
>       Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension
> jokes 
>       Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:07:16 -0400 
>       Dear Toad, 
>       First of all, I'm an engineer & I've owned my
> Rhodes 22 since the spring of 1987. Stan @ GBI will
> never be this specific with rig tuning specs. It's
> just not his nature. Early on, I purchased a Loo's
> tension gage, started doing experiments, making
> measurements, & racing my boat. The specs I gave you
> are the lowest static tension settings that yield
> the desired dynamic behavior in the sailing rig. By
> the way, totalling up the lbs of tension in the
> standing rigging doesn't tell you very much. Each
> stay is loaded individually. The ultimate tensile
> strength of those 5/32" OD, 1 X 19, 316 stainless
> steel wires is on the order of 2800 lbs. At 600 lbs
> max tension on the loaded windward upper sidestay,
> my suggested rig tension settings leave a safety
> factor of more than 4X. 
>       The only part of the standing wire rigging
> I've upgraded was my forestay wire to 3/16" OD,
> which has an ultimate tensile strength of about 4000
> lbs. I did this wire size upgrade when I replaced my
> OEM standard roller furler to a Harken Unit 0. 3/16"
> OD wire in the forestay is probably overkill. But,
> 3/16" OD was the largest standard size available for
> the Harken Unit 0. I had to replace the forestay
> anyway as part of the installation, there was no
> good reason not to upgrade, & it seemed like cheap
> insurance. 
>       The breaking strength of the wires & the
> swaged terminals are the limiting factors. The
> chainplates can hold much more than the rest of the
> rig. You could confidently lift the entire boat
> suspended from the upper side chainplates. They
> don't need to be upgraded. 
>       The mast compression post is only loaded to a
> small fraction of its buckling strength. Don't worry
> about it. 
>       Look on page 970 of the WEST Marine 2002
> Master catalog for a Loo's tension gage. You would
> need to order a Loo's model 91A or PT1. 
>       As I said in my post, I was trying to use the
> image of the ends of the hull bending upward like a
> "22 foot long banana" under rig stress as a "greatly
> exagerated" illustration of the effects involved.
> The real hull deflection is subtle, certainly not
> observable without precision measurement
> instruments. 
>       Since I suggested adjusting the length of the
> forestay in 1/2" increments to adjust your weather
> helm/lee helm balance, if you measure the forestay
> length to 1/4 of that increment, or 1/8" accuracy,
> that will be sufficient resolution. You are quite
> correct, I had too many significant figures in my
> forestay length spec. It should have read 333-5/8". 
>       Criticize me if you wish, but did anyone else
> give you anything but qualitative descriptions of
> rig tuning? Why don't you try my rig tuning
> procedure & see what you think? 
>       Roger Pihlaja 
>       S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: Toad the Wet Sprocket 
>       To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org 
>       Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:30 PM 
>       Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension
> jokes 
>       Roger, 
>       So you have a total of 1800lbs of tension on
> all of your shrouds, not to mention the
> fore/backstay tension? Where did you come up with
> all of these figures? Are these the specs from Stan
> and the guys at GB? This all seems like quite a
> strain on the chain plates and alot of compression
> down through the mast into the hull. 
>       Did you replace your rigging with larger
> cables or beef up the chain plate mountings? 
>       Where can one buy the guage you have and a
> tape measure that measures to three decimal places?
> Is my boat supposed to bend up at the ends like a 22
> foot banana too? 
>       Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was in a goofy
> mood today. Honestly, where did you get these specs?
> 
>       Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com 
>       From: "Roger Pihlaja" 
>       Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org 
>       To: 
>       Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension 
>       Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:56:38 -0400 
>       Jack, 
>       Here's a copy of the rig tuning procedure I
> use: 
>       The 1st thing you want to do is measure the
> length of the forestay on center 
>       from pin-to-pin. On my 1976, standard
> mainsail, Rhodes 22, this measurement 
>       is 333.625 inches. Write this number down
> because it is very important. 
>       If your forestay length is more than a couple
> of inches different than this, 
>       you might want to reset it 333.625 inches as a
> reasonable starting point. 
>       Now step the mast. Take the excess slack out
> of the forestay & backstays 
>       with the backstay adjuster. You don't want
> things real tight at this point. 
>       All upper & lower sidestays should be slack.
> Go to the base of the mast, 
>       pull a halyard taut along the mast & sight up
> the mast from the rear & from 
>       the side. Any deviation from a straight mast
> will show up as a gap between 
>       the mast & the halyard. There should be no
> observable bend or bowing in the 
>       mast. If there is, the mast may have been
> dropped & bent at some point or 
>       may have some other problem. You should call
> Stan at GBI & he will be able 
>       to help you work out your problem. 
>       I like to use a Loo's tension gage. The model
> 91 is the appropriate range 
>       for the Rhodes 22. Remember to always measure
> the tension at the same 
>       relative position on each shroud every time.
> On Dynamic Equilibrium, I 
>       have marked these measurement points with
> little spots of paint on the 
>       wire right at my eye level. 
>       The upper sidestays are adjusted next. Raise a
> tape measure up the mast on 
>       a halyard. Measure to the same point on each
> side of the boat. I like to 
>       use the edge of the toerail right next to the
> sidestay. Tighten the 
>       turnbuckles a little at a time on each side to
> adjust the upper sidestays 
>       until both sides are the same length +/- 1/4"
> & tensioned to approximately 
>       300 lbs +/- 5%. This procedure assures the top
> of the mast is centered in 
>       the boat & the upper sidestays are tensioned
> equally port & starboard. 
>       What you do next depends upon whether your
> boat has the IMF mainsail or a 
>       conventional mainsail. 
>       On an IMF mainsail boat, I would adjust the 4
> lower sidestays so they were 
>       all approximately the same tension. I would
> start with approximately 200 
>       lbs +/- 5% on all 4 lowers. This is not a lot
> of shroud tension. Check for 
>       mast straightness with the halyard again. You
> want the mast to be straight 
>       in order for the IMF furling mechanism inside
> of it to be able to turn 
>       without binding &/or excessive wear on the
> bearings. Minor bending or 
>       bowing can be taken out with the lower
> sidestays. However, I would call 
>       Stan at GBI if I couldn't get the mast to
> straighten out with a difference 
>       of about +/- 15% on lower sidestay tension. 
>       My Rhodes 22 has a conventional mainsail. I
> have a very roachy fully 
>       battened mainsail which has been cut to
> respond to mast bend. I have my 
>       backstay adjuster set-up to adjust quickly
> from the cockpit with calibration 
>       marks on the line. 
>       Tighten the turnbuckles equally & a little a
> time on each side to keep 
>       things reasonably centered. I adjust the
> forward lower sidestays to 400 lbs 
>       +/- 5% of tension, and the aft lower sidestays
> to 200 lbs +/- 5% of tension. 
>       Then, check for mast straightness with the
> halyard. Believe it or not, the 
>       standard mast on the Rhodes 22 is such a stiff
> telephone pole that, at 200 
>       lbs differential tension on the lowers, there
> will be a barely detectable 
>       fore/aft bend in the mast with no sails set &
> the backstay adjuster slack. 
>       At 400 lbs of tension on the lower forward
> sidestays, when the backstay 
>       adjuster is tensioned, primarily only the
> upper half of the mast is pulled 
>       towards the stern. The forestay is tightened &
> the mast is bent at the same 
>       time. Both actions are exactly what you want
> to obtain proper sail shape in 
>       a high wind situation. 
>       Now go out sailing. On a close hauled course,
> put up enough sail to heel 
>       the boat over about 15-20 deg. Make certain
> the rudder blade & centerboard 
>       are all the way down. On my Rhodes 22, the
> above tension settings cause the 
>       mast to remain straight & more or less
> centered in the boat. The primary 
>       thing to check is the upper sidestays. On my
> Rhodes 22 with the above 
>       unloaded tension settings, at 15-20 deg of
> heel, the windward upper sidestay 
>       should have about 450 lbs tension & the
> leeward upper sidestay should have 
>       about 150 lbs of tension. I have my upper
> sidestays set-up such that the 
>       leeward upper sidestay tension drops to 0 lbs
> at about 30 degrees of heel. 
>       At this point, the windward upper sidestay
> will be under about 600 lbs 
>       tension. Note, normally the stays are set-up
> to give proper shroud tension 
>       & the correct amount of weather helm with full
> sail set. This tends to 
>       limit the weather window in which you can do
> this sort of tuning. 
>       When all sails are properly trimmed & the boat
> is "in the groove", there 
>       should only a slight amount of weather helm.
> If there is a huge weather 
>       helm, or neutral, or lee helm; then, you need
> to adjust the rake angle of 
>       the mast. If you have neutral or lee helm;
> then increase the forestay 
>       length. To get rid of excessive weather helm,
> shorten the forestay. The 
>       balance of the boat is very sensitive to this
> mast rake angle, so change it 
>       in increments of about 1/2" at a time. Note, a
> slight amount of weather 
>       helm 
>       is desirable because it provides feedback to
> the helmsman, thus allowing 
>       him to steer a better course. Excessive
> weather helm tends to tire the 
>       helmsman out. 
>       Once I'm happy, I lock the adjustment in place
> by taping the lock nuts on 
>       the turnbuckles. I find I only need to do this
> adjustment once. The 
>       Rhodes 22 is such a strongly built little boat
> that nothing ever seems to 
>       stretch or bend. I do check the side-to-side
> upper sidestay length at the 
>       beginning of every season; but, it's never
> changed in the 13+ seasons I've 
>       been measuring it. Trailering set-up only
> involves adjusting the lower 
>       sidestays since the rest are not disturbed. 
>       As far as rig tension settings on the trailer
> vs. off the trailer, I've 
>       found the 
>       only rig tension adjustment that significantly
> changes is the backstay 
>       tension. 
>       You can set the tension on the rest of the
> standing rigging according to the 
>       above procedure on the trailer. It will be
> very close to optimum when you 
>       get the boat in the water, certainly good
> enough to do the on-the-water 
>       fine tuning described above. 
>       FYI, I slack off on the backstay tension when
> Dynamic Equilibrium is not 
>       being sailed. As I mentioned above, the
> backstay adjuster has sufficient 
>       power to affect the shape of the hull. Greatly
> exaggerated, imagine the 
>       ends 
>       of the hull being pulled upward like a 22 foot
> long banana when the backstay 
>       adjuster is tight! There is no sense leaving
> the hull & rig under that kind 
>       of 
>       stress when the boat is not being sailed. 
>       Jack, I hope this description of rig tuning
> helps you. Good luck! 
>       Roger Pihlaja 
>       S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: "Jack Goldberg" 
>       To: 
>       Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:47 PM 
>       Subject: [Rhodes22-list] shroud tension 
>       > This list has been helpful in the past, so
> I'll come to the trough of 
>       > knowledge to feed again. 
>       > I noted with interest the thread about the
> mast plate bolts coming loose 
>       and 
>       > the response with regard to the tension of
> the shrouds. My 84' has a 
>       > standard main. When I bought the boat this
> spring, the shrouds were very 
>       > loose (obout 3 inches of play from side to
> side at about 3 feet from the 
>       > deck. The guy I bought the boat from said
> that was OK, but now I'm 
>       worried. 
>       > Is there a spec' on how tight (or loose) the
> shrouds should be under no 
>       > load? 
>       > 
>       > Jack Goldberg, 
>       > 
>       >
>
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