[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger Pihlaja
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:55:36 -0400
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MessageEd,
Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope into the =
foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a =
boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much more difficult to operate. Even if you had a boltrope on the foot =
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think =
it would help the performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is compromised to be compatible with IMF. The IMF mainsail has =
no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to furl the =
sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove the battens every =
time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to go up the mast in a =
bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper battens? That =
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail =
has little if any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of =
that line is called the roach. Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation. Triangular sails =
are very aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side elevation =
profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount =
of roach. But, without battens to support the shape, the roach area of =
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather =
helm & other sail trimming problems. This is a primary reason why =
battens were originally introduced into mainsail design.
IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats being =
sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20
If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better genoa =
rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give you far more =
bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger:
Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the main to =
the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
Ed k
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
Richard,
Bullshit! To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails. I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision. Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: R.G. Smith=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also. My boat is a =
re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the sail =
I have is all that Stan had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and 2 =
partial battens towards the foot.
The sail they quoted was also loose footed! When I expressed =
surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains with bolt =
ropes along the foot. There contention is that a loose footed sail =
set's better and last longer.
Richard Smith
=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple =
as sewing a=20
bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF =
boom have a=20
slot to accept a boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom & =
foot=20
together with a boltrope would greatly increase the friction in the IMF =
system,=20
thus making it much more difficult to operate. Even if you had a =
boltrope=20
on the foot of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the =
boltrope, I=20
don't think it would help the performance very much because the =
mainsail's shape=20
& design is compromised to be compatible with IMF. The =
IMF=20
mainsail has no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be =
able to=20
furl the sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove the =
battens=20
every time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to go up =
the mast=20
in a bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper =
battens? That=20
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF =
mainsail has=20
little if any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of=20
the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of that =
line is=20
called the roach. Sails with no roach are essentially triangular =
in shape=20
when viewed from a side elevation. Triangular sails are very=20
aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side =
elevation profile looks=20
more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount of =
roach. But,=20
without battens to support the shape, the roach area of the sail will =
curl=20
hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather helm & =
other sail=20
trimming problems. This is a primary reason why battens were=20
originally introduced into mainsail design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally developed =
for big=20
cruising boats being sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced =
crew, or by elderly or physically unfit crew in order to =
enable=20
the big mainsails to be safely handled. The 110 square foot=20
mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a pretty small sail area=20
& has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in=20
sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for=20
me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this=20
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of the =
charm of=20
the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your way. =
Ed, enjoy=20
the convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have =
with your=20
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it=20
is. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat speed, then =
I would get=20
a better genoa rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation =
design,=20
roller furler for upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or=20
a cruising spinnaker rigged with a snuffer sock for downwind=20
work. These upgrades will give you far more bang for =
your buck=20
than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under certain =
sailing=20
conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think the combination of =
good=20
headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF mainsail to balance =
the=20
helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an IMF mainsail =
boat=20
equipped like this. This setup might very well come close to =
having it=20
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed =
Kroposki</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, 2002 =
7:31=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Rhodes22-list] Loose =
footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"> =
<STRONG>Now=20
for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to secure the main to =
the boom=20
to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer design IMF????</EM> =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New"> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Ed k</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, =
2002 7:01=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit! To the best of my =
knowledge,=20
there isn't a single performance oriented sailboat racing class =
that=20
prefers to use loose footed mainsails. I don't know why Doyle =
has made=20
this marketing decision. Fortunately, there are plenty of =
other=20
choices of sailmakers & I would run, not walk, away from=20
this idiot at Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G. =
Smith</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, =
2002 2:46=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is pretty much =
shot=20
also. My boat is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the =
old style=20
spars (non IMF) and the sail I have is all that Stan =
had. =20
I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new main the sail they=20
suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and 2 partial =
battens=20
towards the foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also loose =
footed! =20
When I expressed surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer =
building=20
mains with bolt ropes along the foot. There contention is =
that a=20
loose footed sail set's better and last =
longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma=20
=
size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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