[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed Kroposki
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:18:09 -0400
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed,
Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope into the =
foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a =
boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much more difficult to operate. Even if you had a boltrope on the foot =
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think =
it would help the performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is compromised to be compatible with IMF. The IMF mainsail has =
no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to furl the =
sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove the battens every =
time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to go up the mast in a =
bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper battens? That =
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail =
has little if any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of =
that line is called the roach. Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation. Triangular sails =
are very aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side elevation =
profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount =
of roach. But, without battens to support the shape, the roach area of =
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather =
helm & other sail trimming problems. This is a primary reason why =
battens were originally introduced into mainsail design.
IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats being =
sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20
If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better genoa =
rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give you far more =
bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger:
Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the main =
to the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
Ed k
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
Richard,
Bullshit! To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails. I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision. Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: R.G. Smith=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also. My boat is a =
re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the sail =
I have is all that Stan had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and 2 =
partial battens towards the foot.
The sail they quoted was also loose footed! When I expressed =
surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains with bolt =
ropes along the foot. There contention is that a loose footed sail =
set's better and last longer.
Richard Smith
=20
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<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 25, 2002 =
5:55=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as =
simple as sewing=20
a bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF =
boom=20
have a slot to accept a boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom =
&=20
foot together with a boltrope would greatly increase the friction in =
the IMF=20
system, thus making it much more difficult to operate. Even if =
you had a=20
boltrope on the foot of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept =
the=20
boltrope, I don't think it would help the performance very much =
because the=20
mainsail's shape & design is compromised to be compatible =
with=20
IMF. The IMF mainsail has no battens & no easy way to have =
battens=20
& still be able to furl the sail inside of the mast. Are you =
prepared to remove the battens every time you want to furl the =
sail? Are=20
you prepared to go up the mast in a bosun's chair in order to be able =
to get=20
at the upper battens? That would sort of defeat the purpose of =
IMF=20
wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail has little if any roach. =
Roach: If=20
you drew an imaginary line from the head of the sail to the clew, the =
portion=20
of the sail area outside of that line is called the roach. =
Sails=20
with no roach are essentially triangular in shape when viewed from a =
side=20
elevation. Triangular sails are very aerodynamically =
inefficient. =20
The optimum side elevation profile looks more like an ellipse, =
which=20
implies a considerable amount of roach. But, without battens to =
support=20
the shape, the roach area of the sail will curl hopelessly to =
windward,=20
thus creating monster weather helm & other sail trimming=20
problems. This is a primary reason why battens were =
originally=20
introduced into mainsail design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally =
developed for big=20
cruising boats being sailed shorthanded, or with =
inexperienced=20
crew, or by elderly or physically unfit crew in order =
to enable=20
the big mainsails to be safely handled. The 110 square foot =
mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a pretty small sail area=20
& has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in=20
sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable=20
for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this=20
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of =
the charm=20
of the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your =
way. Ed,=20
enjoy the convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you =
have=20
with your IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it =
is. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat speed, =
then I would=20
get a better genoa rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation =
design,=20
roller furler for upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or=20
a cruising spinnaker rigged with a snuffer sock for downwind =
work. These upgrades will give you far more bang for =
your buck=20
than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain=20
sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think the =
combination=20
of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF mainsail =
to=20
balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an =
IMF=20
mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might very well =
come close=20
to having it all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
Kroposki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, =
2002 7:31=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"> =
<STRONG>Now for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to secure =
the main=20
to the boom to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer design=20
IMF????</EM> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New"> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Ed k</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, =
2002 7:01=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit! To the best of my =
knowledge,=20
there isn't a single performance oriented sailboat =
racing class that=20
prefers to use loose footed mainsails. I don't know why =
Doyle has=20
made this marketing decision. Fortunately, there are plenty =
of other=20
choices of sailmakers & I would run, not walk, away from=20
this idiot at Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com =
href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G. Smith</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
2:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is pretty =
much shot=20
also. My boat is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the =
old=20
style spars (non IMF) and the sail I have is all that =
Stan=20
had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main the sail=20
they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and 2 =
partial=20
battens towards the foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also loose=20
footed! When I expressed surprise I was told that (Doyle) =
was no=20
longer building mains with bolt ropes along the foot. =
There=20
contention is that a loose footed sail set's better and last=20
longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
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=
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