[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails

Roger Pihlaja rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:45:12 -0400


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MessageEd,

Did you want to ask me something or were just sending me a copy of my =
own post?

Roger
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ed Kroposki=20
  To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:18 AM
  Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails



    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Roger Pihlaja=20
    To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
    Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:55 AM
    Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails


    Ed,

    Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope into =
the foot of an IMF mainsail.  Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a =
boltrope?  Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much more difficult to operate.  Even if you had a boltrope on the foot =
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think =
it would help the performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is compromised to be compatible with IMF.  The IMF mainsail has =
no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to furl the =
sail inside of the mast.  Are you prepared to remove the battens every =
time you want to furl the sail?  Are you prepared to go up the mast in a =
bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper battens?  That =
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it?  The IMF mainsail =
has little if any roach.  Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of =
that line is called the roach.  Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation.  Triangular sails =
are very aerodynamically inefficient.  The optimum side elevation =
profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount =
of roach.  But, without battens to support the shape, the roach area of =
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather =
helm & other sail trimming problems.  This is a primary reason why =
battens were originally introduced into mainsail design.

    IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats being =
sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled.  The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle.  The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me.  However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails.  That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI.  You really can have it your way.  Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20

    If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better genoa =
rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer sock for downwind work.  These upgrades will give you far more =
bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail.  Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast.  I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this.  This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.

    Roger Pihlaja
    S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Ed Kroposki=20
      To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
      Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
      Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails


      Roger:
             Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the main =
to the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
                                    Ed k
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Roger Pihlaja=20
        To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
        Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
        Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating


        Richard,

        Bullshit!  To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails.  I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision.  Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.

        Roger Pihlaja
        S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
          ----- Original Message -----=20
          From: R.G. Smith=20
          To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
          Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
          Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating


          The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also.  My boat is =
a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the =
sail I have is all that Stan had.  I got in touch with Doyle regarding a =
new main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and =
2 partial battens towards the foot.

          The sail they quoted was also loose footed!  When I expressed =
surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains with bolt =
ropes along the foot.  There contention is that a loose footed sail =
set's better and last longer.

          Richard Smith

            =20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did you want to ask me something or =
were just=20
sending me a copy of my own post?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed =
Kroposki</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
 </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 10:18=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
  main sails</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
    Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 25, 2002 =
5:55=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
    footed main sails</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as =
simple as=20
    sewing a bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail.&nbsp; =
Does&nbsp;your=20
    IMF boom have a slot to accept a boltrope?&nbsp; Of course, =
attaching the=20
    boom &amp; foot together with a boltrope would greatly increase the =
friction=20
    in the IMF system, thus making it much more difficult to =
operate.&nbsp; Even=20
    if you had a boltrope on the foot of your sail &amp; a boom with a =
slot to=20
    accept the boltrope, I don't think it would help the performance =
very much=20
    because the mainsail's shape &amp; design&nbsp;is compromised to be=20
    compatible with IMF.&nbsp; The IMF mainsail has no battens &amp; no =
easy way=20
    to have battens &amp; still be able to furl the sail inside of the=20
    mast.&nbsp; Are you prepared to remove the battens every time you =
want to=20
    furl the sail?&nbsp; Are you prepared to go up the mast in a bosun's =
chair=20
    in order to be able to get at the upper battens?&nbsp; That would =
sort of=20
    defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it?&nbsp; The IMF mainsail has =
little if=20
    any roach.&nbsp; Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the head =
of the=20
    sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area&nbsp;outside of that =
line is=20
    called the roach.&nbsp; Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in=20
    shape when viewed from a side elevation.&nbsp; Triangular sails are =
very=20
    aerodynamically inefficient.&nbsp; The optimum side =
elevation&nbsp;profile=20
    looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount of=20
    roach.&nbsp; But, without battens to support the shape, the roach =
area of=20
    the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus&nbsp;creating =
monster=20
    weather helm &amp; other sail trimming problems.&nbsp; This is a =
primary=20
    reason&nbsp;why battens were originally introduced into mainsail=20
    design.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally =
developed for big=20
    cruising boats&nbsp;being&nbsp;sailed shorthanded, or with =
inexperienced=20
    crew,&nbsp;or by elderly&nbsp;or physically unfit crew&nbsp;in order =
to=20
    enable the big mainsails to be&nbsp;safely handled.&nbsp; The 110 =
square=20
    foot mainsail&nbsp;on Dynamic Equilibrium is a&nbsp;pretty small =
sail area=20
    &amp;&nbsp;has never been a problem for me to handle.&nbsp; The =
reduction in=20
    sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails&nbsp;is simply not =
acceptable=20
    for me.&nbsp; However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this=20
    list&nbsp;absolutely love their IMF mainsails.&nbsp; That's part of =
the=20
    charm of the Rhodes 22 &amp; GBI.&nbsp; You really can have it your=20
    way.&nbsp; Ed, enjoy the convenience, safety, &amp; whatever level =
of=20
    performance you have with your IMF mainsail because I think you're =
stuck=20
    with it the way it is.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat speed, =
then I would=20
    get a better genoa&nbsp;rigged on&nbsp;a modern, 3rd or 4th =
generation=20
    design, roller furler for upwind&nbsp;sailing&nbsp;plus a triradial =
&amp;/or=20
    a&nbsp;cruising&nbsp;spinnaker rigged with a snuffer sock for =
downwind=20
    work.&nbsp; These&nbsp;upgrades&nbsp;will give you far more bang for =
your=20
    buck than&nbsp;trying to upgrade&nbsp;your IMF mainsail.&nbsp; Under =
certain=20
    sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think the=20
    combination of good headsails &amp; the infinite adjustability of an =
IMF=20
    mainsail to balance the helm&nbsp;would be very fast.&nbsp; I'd love =
to sail=20
    on an IMF mainsail boat equipped like this.&nbsp; This setup might =
very well=20
    come close to having it all.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
      Kroposki</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
      title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
      </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, =
2002 7:31=20
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
      main sails</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      <STRONG>Now for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to =
secure the=20
      main to the boom to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer design=20
      IMF????</EM>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT=20
      face=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      Ed k</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
        href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
        7:01 PM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
        Bending &amp; PHRF Rating</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit!&nbsp; To the best of =
my=20
        knowledge, there isn't a single performance oriented sailboat=20
        racing&nbsp;class that prefers to use loose footed =
mainsails.&nbsp; I=20
        don't know why Doyle has made this marketing decision.&nbsp;=20
        Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of =
sailmakers&nbsp;&amp;=20
        I would run, not walk, away from this&nbsp;idiot at =
Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
        style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
          <DIV=20
          style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
          <A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com =
href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G.=20
          Smith</A> </DIV>
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
          title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
          </DIV>
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
          2:46 PM</DIV>
          <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
          Bending &amp; PHRF Rating</DIV>
          <DIV><BR></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
          class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is pretty =
much shot=20
          also.&nbsp; My boat is a re-mfg 1990&nbsp;and I insisted on =
the old=20
          style spars (non IMF)&nbsp;and the sail I have&nbsp;is all =
that Stan=20
          had.&nbsp; I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main&nbsp;the=20
          sail they suggust&nbsp;has 2 full length battens at the head =
and 2=20
          partial battens towards the foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
          class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
          class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also loose =

          footed!&nbsp; When I expressed surprise I was told that =
(Doyle) was no=20
          longer building mains with bolt ropes along the foot.&nbsp; =
There=20
          contention is that a loose footed sail set's better and last=20
          longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
          class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
          class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
            <DIV></DIV>
            <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
            face=3DTahoma=20
      =
size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
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