[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger Pihlaja
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:45:12 -0400
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MessageEd,
Did you want to ask me something or were just sending me a copy of my =
own post?
Roger
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed,
Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope into =
the foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a =
boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much more difficult to operate. Even if you had a boltrope on the foot =
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think =
it would help the performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is compromised to be compatible with IMF. The IMF mainsail has =
no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to furl the =
sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove the battens every =
time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to go up the mast in a =
bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper battens? That =
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail =
has little if any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of =
that line is called the roach. Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation. Triangular sails =
are very aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side elevation =
profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount =
of roach. But, without battens to support the shape, the roach area of =
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather =
helm & other sail trimming problems. This is a primary reason why =
battens were originally introduced into mainsail design.
IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats being =
sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20
If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better genoa =
rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give you far more =
bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger:
Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the main =
to the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
Ed k
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
Richard,
Bullshit! To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails. I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision. Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: R.G. Smith=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also. My boat is =
a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the =
sail I have is all that Stan had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a =
new main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and =
2 partial battens towards the foot.
The sail they quoted was also loose footed! When I expressed =
surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains with bolt =
ropes along the foot. There contention is that a loose footed sail =
set's better and last longer.
Richard Smith
=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did you want to ask me something or =
were just=20
sending me a copy of my own post?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed =
Kroposki</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 10:18=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 25, 2002 =
5:55=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as =
simple as=20
sewing a bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail. =
Does your=20
IMF boom have a slot to accept a boltrope? Of course, =
attaching the=20
boom & foot together with a boltrope would greatly increase the =
friction=20
in the IMF system, thus making it much more difficult to =
operate. Even=20
if you had a boltrope on the foot of your sail & a boom with a =
slot to=20
accept the boltrope, I don't think it would help the performance =
very much=20
because the mainsail's shape & design is compromised to be=20
compatible with IMF. The IMF mainsail has no battens & no =
easy way=20
to have battens & still be able to furl the sail inside of the=20
mast. Are you prepared to remove the battens every time you =
want to=20
furl the sail? Are you prepared to go up the mast in a bosun's =
chair=20
in order to be able to get at the upper battens? That would =
sort of=20
defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail has =
little if=20
any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the head =
of the=20
sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of that =
line is=20
called the roach. Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in=20
shape when viewed from a side elevation. Triangular sails are =
very=20
aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side =
elevation profile=20
looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount of=20
roach. But, without battens to support the shape, the roach =
area of=20
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating =
monster=20
weather helm & other sail trimming problems. This is a =
primary=20
reason why battens were originally introduced into mainsail=20
design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally =
developed for big=20
cruising boats being sailed shorthanded, or with =
inexperienced=20
crew, or by elderly or physically unfit crew in order =
to=20
enable the big mainsails to be safely handled. The 110 =
square=20
foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a pretty small =
sail area=20
& has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in=20
sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable=20
for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this=20
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of =
the=20
charm of the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your=20
way. Ed, enjoy the convenience, safety, & whatever level =
of=20
performance you have with your IMF mainsail because I think you're =
stuck=20
with it the way it is. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat speed, =
then I would=20
get a better genoa rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th =
generation=20
design, roller furler for upwind sailing plus a triradial =
&/or=20
a cruising spinnaker rigged with a snuffer sock for =
downwind=20
work. These upgrades will give you far more bang for =
your=20
buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain=20
sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think the=20
combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an =
IMF=20
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love =
to sail=20
on an IMF mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might =
very well=20
come close to having it all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
Kroposki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 24, =
2002 7:31=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"> =20
<STRONG>Now for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to =
secure the=20
main to the boom to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer design=20
IMF????</EM> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New"> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Ed k</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
7:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit! To the best of =
my=20
knowledge, there isn't a single performance oriented sailboat=20
racing class that prefers to use loose footed =
mainsails. I=20
don't know why Doyle has made this marketing decision. =20
Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of =
sailmakers &=20
I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at =
Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com =
href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G.=20
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
2:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is pretty =
much shot=20
also. My boat is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on =
the old=20
style spars (non IMF) and the sail I have is all =
that Stan=20
had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main the=20
sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head =
and 2=20
partial battens towards the foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also loose =
footed! When I expressed surprise I was told that =
(Doyle) was no=20
longer building mains with bolt ropes along the foot. =
There=20
contention is that a loose footed sail set's better and last=20
longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma=20
=
size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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