[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Rik Sandberg
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:11:50 -0500
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MessageRoger,
If I remember right, his message was at the bottom, under your message. =
I didn't see it right away either.
Rik
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed,
Did you want to ask me something or were just sending me a copy of my =
own post?
Roger
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed,
Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope into =
the foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a =
boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much more difficult to operate. Even if you had a boltrope on the foot =
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think =
it would help the performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is compromised to be compatible with IMF. The IMF mainsail has =
no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to furl the =
sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove the battens every =
time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to go up the mast in a =
bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper battens? That =
would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail =
has little if any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from the =
head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail area outside of =
that line is called the roach. Sails with no roach are essentially =
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation. Triangular sails =
are very aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side elevation =
profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount =
of roach. But, without battens to support the shape, the roach area of =
the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather =
helm & other sail trimming problems. This is a primary reason why =
battens were originally introduced into mainsail design.
IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats =
being sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20
If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better genoa =
rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give you far more =
bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger:
Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the =
main to the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
Ed k
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
Richard,
Bullshit! To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails. I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision. Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: R.G. Smith=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also. My boat =
is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the =
sail I have is all that Stan had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a =
new main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and =
2 partial battens towards the foot.
The sail they quoted was also loose footed! When I =
expressed surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains =
with bolt ropes along the foot. There contention is that a loose footed =
sail set's better and last longer.
Richard Smith
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Roger,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If I remember right, his message was at the bottom, =
under your=20
message. I didn't see it right away either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rik</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 1:45=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did you want to ask me something or =
were just=20
sending me a copy of my own post?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
Kroposki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 10:18=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 25, =
2002 5:55=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as =
simple as=20
sewing a bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail. =
Does your=20
IMF boom have a slot to accept a boltrope? Of course, =
attaching the=20
boom & foot together with a boltrope would greatly increase =
the=20
friction in the IMF system, thus making it much more difficult to=20
operate. Even if you had a boltrope on the foot of your sail =
& a=20
boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I don't think it would =
help the=20
performance very much because the mainsail's shape & =
design is=20
compromised to be compatible with IMF. The IMF mainsail has =
no=20
battens & no easy way to have battens & still be able to =
furl the=20
sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove the =
battens=20
every time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to go =
up the=20
mast in a bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the upper=20
battens? That would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF =
wouldn't=20
it? The IMF mainsail has little if any roach. Roach: =
If you=20
drew an imaginary line from the head of the sail to the clew, the =
portion=20
of the sail area outside of that line is called the =
roach. =20
Sails with no roach are essentially triangular in shape when =
viewed from a=20
side elevation. Triangular sails are very aerodynamically=20
inefficient. The optimum side elevation profile looks =
more like=20
an ellipse, which implies a considerable amount of roach. =
But,=20
without battens to support the shape, the roach area of the sail =
will curl=20
hopelessly to windward, thus creating monster weather helm =
&=20
other sail trimming problems. This is a primary =
reason why=20
battens were originally introduced into mainsail =
design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally =
developed for=20
big cruising boats being sailed shorthanded, or with=20
inexperienced crew, or by elderly or physically unfit=20
crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely=20
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic =
Equilibrium is=20
a pretty small sail area & has never been a problem =
for me=20
to handle. The reduction in sailing performance involved in =
IMF=20
mainsails is simply not acceptable for me. However, I =
realize a=20
lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this list absolutely love their =
IMF=20
mainsails. That's part of the charm of the Rhodes 22 &=20
GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the=20
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have =
with=20
your IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it=20
is. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat =
speed, then I=20
would get a better genoa rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th=20
generation design, roller furler for upwind sailing plus =
a=20
triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer=20
sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give =
you far=20
more bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF=20
mainsail. Under certain sailing conditions, especially when =
it's=20
puffy, I would think the combination of good headsails & the =
infinite=20
adjustability of an IMF mainsail to balance the helm would be =
very=20
fast. I'd love to sail on an IMF mainsail boat equipped like =
this. This setup might very well come close to having it=20
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
Kroposki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
7:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"> =20
<STRONG>Now for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to =
secure the=20
main to the boom to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer =
design=20
IMF????</EM> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New"> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Ed k</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
7:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Mast=20
Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit! To the best =
of my=20
knowledge, there isn't a single performance oriented sailboat=20
racing class that prefers to use loose footed =
mainsails. I=20
don't know why Doyle has made this marketing decision. =20
Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of=20
sailmakers & I would run, not walk, away from =
this idiot=20
at Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com =
href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G.=20
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
August 24, 2002=20
2:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list]=20
Mast Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is pretty =
much shot=20
also. My boat is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on =
the old=20
style spars (non IMF) and the sail I have is all =
that Stan=20
had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a new =
main the=20
sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head =
and 2=20
partial battens towards the foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also =
loose=20
footed! When I expressed surprise I was told that =
(Doyle) was=20
no longer building mains with bolt ropes along the =
foot. There=20
contention is that a loose footed sail set's better and last =
longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
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align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
=
size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
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