[Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Rik Sandberg
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:56:53 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C24EA3.25C294A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MessageOops, got to looking at that message and checking times and I =
guess there wasn't anything new on that message. Sorry about that, let =
the clutch out on the fingers before the brain was in gear.
Rik
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rik Sandberg=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger,
If I remember right, his message was at the bottom, under your =
message. I didn't see it right away either.
Rik
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed,
Did you want to ask me something or were just sending me a copy of =
my own post?
Roger
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Ed,
Probably, but it wouldn't be as simple as sewing a bolt rope =
into the foot of an IMF mainsail. Does your IMF boom have a slot to =
accept a boltrope? Of course, attaching the boom & foot together with a =
boltrope would greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus =
making it much more difficult to operate. Even if you had a boltrope on =
the foot of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I =
don't think it would help the performance very much because the =
mainsail's shape & design is compromised to be compatible with IMF. The =
IMF mainsail has no battens & no easy way to have battens & still be =
able to furl the sail inside of the mast. Are you prepared to remove =
the battens every time you want to furl the sail? Are you prepared to =
go up the mast in a bosun's chair in order to be able to get at the =
upper battens? That would sort of defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't =
it? The IMF mainsail has little if any roach. Roach: If you drew an =
imaginary line from the head of the sail to the clew, the portion of the =
sail area outside of that line is called the roach. Sails with no roach =
are essentially triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation. =
Triangular sails are very aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum side =
elevation profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies a =
considerable amount of roach. But, without battens to support the =
shape, the roach area of the sail will curl hopelessly to windward, thus =
creating monster weather helm & other sail trimming problems. This is a =
primary reason why battens were originally introduced into mainsail =
design.
IMF mainsails were orginally developed for big cruising boats =
being sailed shorthanded, or with inexperienced crew, or by elderly or =
physically unfit crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic Equilibrium is a =
pretty small sail area & has never been a problem for me to handle. The =
reduction in sailing performance involved in IMF mainsails is simply not =
acceptable for me. However, I realize a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this =
list absolutely love their IMF mainsails. That's part of the charm of =
the Rhodes 22 & GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the =
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you have with your =
IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way it is.=20
If still you want more boat speed, then I would get a better =
genoa rigged on a modern, 3rd or 4th generation design, roller furler =
for upwind sailing plus a triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged =
with a snuffer sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give you far =
more bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your IMF mainsail. Under =
certain sailing conditions, especially when it's puffy, I would think =
the combination of good headsails & the infinite adjustability of an IMF =
mainsail to balance the helm would be very fast. I'd love to sail on an =
IMF mainsail boat equipped like this. This setup might very well come =
close to having it all.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed Kroposki=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Loose footed main sails
Roger:
Now for the IMF crowd -- is there anyway to secure the =
main to the boom to maintain shape on the Stan Spitzer design IMF???? =20
Ed k
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roger Pihlaja=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
Richard,
Bullshit! To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single =
performance oriented sailboat racing class that prefers to use loose =
footed mainsails. I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision. Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of sailmakers =
& I would run, not walk, away from this idiot at Doyle.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic eQuilibrium
----- Original Message -----=20
From: R.G. Smith=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Bending & PHRF Rating
The mainsail on my boat is pretty much shot also. My boat =
is a re-mfg 1990 and I insisted on the old style spars (non IMF) and the =
sail I have is all that Stan had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a =
new main the sail they suggust has 2 full length battens at the head and =
2 partial battens towards the foot.
The sail they quoted was also loose footed! When I =
expressed surprise I was told that (Doyle) was no longer building mains =
with bolt ropes along the foot. There contention is that a loose footed =
sail set's better and last longer.
Richard Smith
------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C24EA3.25C294A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4919.2200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oops, got to looking at that message and checking =
times and I=20
guess there wasn't anything new on that message. Sorry about =
that, let the=20
clutch out on the fingers before the brain was in =
gear.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rik</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dracerrik@rea-alp.com =
href=3D"mailto:racerrik@rea-alp.com">Rik=20
Sandberg</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 2:11=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose footed=20
main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Roger,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If I remember right, his message was at the =
bottom, under=20
your message. I didn't see it right away either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rik</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net =
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger=20
Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002 1:45=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did you want to ask me something or =
were just=20
sending me a copy of my own post?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
Kroposki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 28, =
2002=20
10:18 AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 25, =
2002 5:55=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list] Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably, but it wouldn't be as =
simple as=20
sewing a bolt rope into the foot of an IMF mainsail. =20
Does your IMF boom have a slot to accept a boltrope? =
Of=20
course, attaching the boom & foot together with a boltrope =
would=20
greatly increase the friction in the IMF system, thus making it =
much=20
more difficult to operate. Even if you had a boltrope on =
the foot=20
of your sail & a boom with a slot to accept the boltrope, I =
don't=20
think it would help the performance very much because the =
mainsail's=20
shape & design is compromised to be compatible with =
IMF. =20
The IMF mainsail has no battens & no easy way to have =
battens &=20
still be able to furl the sail inside of the mast. Are you =
prepared to remove the battens every time you want to furl the=20
sail? Are you prepared to go up the mast in a bosun's =
chair in=20
order to be able to get at the upper battens? That would =
sort of=20
defeat the purpose of IMF wouldn't it? The IMF mainsail =
has little=20
if any roach. Roach: If you drew an imaginary line from =
the head=20
of the sail to the clew, the portion of the sail =
area outside of=20
that line is called the roach. Sails with no roach are =
essentially=20
triangular in shape when viewed from a side elevation. =
Triangular=20
sails are very aerodynamically inefficient. The optimum =
side=20
elevation profile looks more like an ellipse, which implies =
a=20
considerable amount of roach. But, without battens to =
support the=20
shape, the roach area of the sail will curl hopelessly to =
windward,=20
thus creating monster weather helm & other sail =
trimming=20
problems. This is a primary reason why battens were=20
originally introduced into mainsail design.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IMF mainsails were orginally =
developed for=20
big cruising boats being sailed shorthanded, or with=20
inexperienced crew, or by elderly or physically unfit=20
crew in order to enable the big mainsails to be safely =
handled. The 110 square foot mainsail on Dynamic =
Equilibrium=20
is a pretty small sail area & has never been a =
problem for=20
me to handle. The reduction in sailing performance =
involved in IMF=20
mainsails is simply not acceptable for me. However, I =
realize=20
a lot of Rhodes 22 owners on this list absolutely love =
their IMF=20
mainsails. That's part of the charm of the Rhodes 22 & =
GBI. You really can have it your way. Ed, enjoy the=20
convenience, safety, & whatever level of performance you =
have with=20
your IMF mainsail because I think you're stuck with it the way =
it=20
is. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If still you want more boat =
speed, then I=20
would get a better genoa rigged on a modern, 3rd or =
4th=20
generation design, roller furler for =
upwind sailing plus a=20
triradial &/or a cruising spinnaker rigged with a =
snuffer=20
sock for downwind work. These upgrades will give =
you far=20
more bang for your buck than trying to upgrade your =
IMF=20
mainsail. Under certain sailing conditions, especially =
when it's=20
puffy, I would think the combination of good headsails & the =
infinite adjustability of an IMF mainsail to balance the =
helm would=20
be very fast. I'd love to sail on an IMF mainsail boat =
equipped=20
like this. This setup might very well come close to having =
it=20
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
Equilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkroposki@innova.net =
href=3D"mailto:kroposki@innova.net">Ed=20
Kroposki</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August =
24, 2002=20
7:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> =
[Rhodes22-list] Loose=20
footed main sails</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Roger:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"> =20
<STRONG>Now for the IMF crowd</STRONG> -- is there anyway to =
secure=20
the main to the boom to maintain shape on the <EM>Stan Spitzer =
design=20
IMF????</EM> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New"> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; =20
Ed k</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcen09402@centurytel.net=20
href=3D"mailto:cen09402@centurytel.net">Roger Pihlaja</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
August 24, 2002=20
7:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Rhodes22-list]=20
Mast Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bullshit! To the best =
of my=20
knowledge, there isn't a single performance oriented =
sailboat=20
racing class that prefers to use loose footed =
mainsails. =20
I don't know why Doyle has made this marketing =
decision. =20
Fortunately, there are plenty of other choices of=20
sailmakers & I would run, not walk, away from=20
this idiot at Doyle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger Pihlaja</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>S/V Dynamic =
eQuilibrium</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message =
----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; =
font-color: black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsailnut@asan.com =
href=3D"mailto:sailnut@asan.com">R.G.=20
Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
August 24,=20
2002 2:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Rhodes22-list]=20
Mast Bending & PHRF Rating</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The mainsail on my boat is =
pretty much=20
shot also. My boat is a re-mfg 1990 and I =
insisted on=20
the old style spars (non IMF) and the sail I =
have is all=20
that Stan had. I got in touch with Doyle regarding a =
new=20
main the sail they suggust has 2 full length =
battens at=20
the head and 2 partial battens towards the=20
foot.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>The sail they quoted was also =
loose=20
footed! When I expressed surprise I was told that =
(Doyle)=20
was no longer building mains with bolt ropes along the =
foot. =20
There contention is that a loose footed sail set's better =
and last=20
longer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D718413818-24082002>Richard =
Smith</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
=
size=3D2><BR></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></H=
TML>
------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C24EA3.25C294A0--