[Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks

[Ware, Joseph W.]

Rik, Michael, re-thinking is exactly what I am doing, with all of your help.
What kind of highway mileage do these diesel pick-up trucks get?  I'm about
15 with my gas powered truck.  Are they worse than that?  Also, would the
extra up front money give me extended years on the back end?

To buy now is $36k - trade in = $28k - discounts (I hear that they are
drooping prices around here now) - $8k = $20 for new diesel.

If I wait 4 years, in today's dollars, and buy the gas non 4wd truck = $26k
- trade in = $24k - discounts = $20k for new gas.  If the assumptions are
even close, and my current truck makes it without costing me too much...

Here-in lies my decision... new now or wait... what condition will the
diesel be in 4 years with 80,000 miles on it...

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Rik Sandberg [mailto:racerrik@rea-alp.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:01 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks


Joe,

If you don't have a job of hard work for this diesel to do, you might want 
to get out your pencil and rethink this thing a little. I'm not so sure the 
extra longevity of the engine will make up for the possible fuel mileage 
penalties and the fairly steep extra up front cost.

If you really just like to hear that old diesel rattle when you step on the 
throttle, well now, that's a whole 'nother thing. :-) At our truck shop we 
call that "bobby big-rigger syndrome". These are the guys that have way 
more or way fancier trucks than they need, just because it makes their ego 
feel good. Not a thing wrong with this if you can and are willing to afford 
it. It sounds to me though like you are trying to save money by going this 
route. I'm not sure it will pan out that way. To make up for the difference 
in up front cost you will need to get some pretty respectable fuel mileage 
in comparison to a gas powered truck. I don't know that you will find a lot 
of diesels out there that will do this. I'd sharpen up my pencil and really 
check it out before I jumped into this with both feet.

Rik


At 09:25 AM 11/14/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Ah Michael, what you are missing is right now the boat is staying in PA
with
>me.  I sail on a local lake.  We travel south to the house because we are
>refurbishing it for retirement as well as fishing on a stinkpot.  The boat
>will go south in 2003 or 2004.  We will still be making the trip until we
>retire.  It's not about towing, I have no problem with my durrent truck,
>it's about the excessive miles, and when to replace the vehicle.  If I
>replace it now, I will get the diesel.  If I run it into the ground, and
>purchase a new vehicle closer to when we stop making the trip, it will be
>gas.  It's all about when it happens.
>
>Joe
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Meltzer [mailto:mjm@michaelmeltzer.com]
>Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:02 AM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
>
>
>maybe I am missing something, Why not keep the boat down their?
>you should be able to dry store for a few hundred dollar or get a slip.
your
>milage will be cut in half towing the boat, that alone
>should pay for it, not to mention the ware and tare;.
>
>MJM
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ware, Joseph W." <joseph_ware@merck.com>
>To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:02 AM
>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
>
>
> > Great discussion, thanks.  I'm from eastern Pennsylvania, and travel 220
> > miles each way south to the eastern shore of Virginia every other
weekend.
> > I will be doing this for another 3-5 years before I finally retire.
There
> > in lies my dilemma.  Keep my 1997 Dodge 1500, 5.9L gas truck with
120,000
> > miles on it now and add another 80,000 to 100,000.  Or, dump it now and
>pick
> > up the diesel.  My reason for the diesel is the 80,000 to 100,000
initial
> > miles, then the rest of the life of me or the truck after that.  If I
stay
> > with my current vehicle, I'll need to replace it in the future anyway.
So
> > why not now, and get the diesel.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rik Sandberg [mailto:racerrik@rea-alp.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:01 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
> >
> >
> > Doug,
> >
> > You are right, out in Ohio where you are the winters are a ton milder
than
> > here. I don't know where Joe is from though or where he might go, so I
> > brought the subject up.
> >
> > Far as your fuel is concerned, #2 for most of the conditions you will
get
> > into in Ohio, will work just fine. If you feel you are going to see
temps
> > under maybe 10 degrees or so, you might think about buying a 50/50 blend
>of
> > #1 and #2, or you can blend it yourself by just putting half in from
each
> > respective pump. That's assuming that you buy fuel where they actually
>have
> > a pump for both grades. If you are looking at temps lower than 5 or 10
>below
> > 0, I would seriously consider not blending at all and going with
straight
>#1
> > fuel. There is a lot of paraffin in #2 diesel fuel. When it starts
getting
> > pretty cold this paraffin will start to solidify and separate from the
> > liquid. The paraffin solids will plug your fuel filters in short order
>once
> > they start forming. This is called jelling up. It generally had to be
>pretty
> > cold for this to happen. Probably below zero if you have pretty good
>quality
> > fuel. I have seen it happen at about 25 above though if you get a batch
of
> > crappy fuel. You can probably get into those high cetane winter blend
>fuels
> > and stuff too if you want to. We have never messed with that stuff
though.
>I
> > don't know exactly what the difference is, but I do know it's generally
> > quite a bit more expensive
> >
> > OK, that's one way to freeze up, but there is also another way. Water in
> > your fuel can freeze almost anytime the weather is below freezing and
>will,
> > especially if you park your vehicle outside and shut it off for a while.
>Now
> > most people think they get water in their fuel from the fuel station.
>Well,
> > this is possible, but, most time they actually put the water in the tank
> > themselves without realizing it.
> >
> > What one needs to understand is how condensation can put water in your
>fuel.
> > Our biggest problem, fuel-wise, in the winter is our heated garage. If a
> > driver doesn't top off his fuel tank before parking his truck in the
warm
> > garage, there will always be water in his fuel tanks. If he does this
very
> > many times in a row, there will be enough water in the tanks to be
picked
>up
> > with the fuel and make it to the fuel filters, where it WILL eventually
>turn
> > to ice and freeze the filter shut. I know you probably can't look inside
>the
> > fuel tank on your pickup, but on my big truck, I can. When these trucks
>get
> > backed inside our shop on a cold day with a less than full tank, I can
>pull
> > of the fuel cap and see the frost on the inside of the tank. Sooner or
>later
> > this frost is going to become water and end up in the bottom of the
tank.
> >
> > So, it is kind of a toss up whether you are better off keeping your
truck
> > inside so you always start with warm fuel, or keep it outside so you
don't
> > get condensation in your tank. Given a choice I would pick inside, being
> > careful to keep my tanks full as much as possible and also regularly
>adding
> > some isopropyl alcohol (or similar fuel treatment, I have also used
> > methanol) to the tanks to break up the water. Also, in the winter I
always
> > carry at least one set of fuel filters with me, ALL THE TIME. You'll
>usually
> > only plug the primary filter, but I've seen both changed before the
truck
> > would run again.
> >
> > Keep in mind here, I'm am absolutely NOT a chemist!!! Most of these
>lessons
> > I have just picked up at the school of hard knocks and frozen toes. Got
>the
> > poor circulation in my fingers and toes to prove it. :-)
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gardner, Douglas L. (LNG-DAY)" <douglas.gardner@lexisnexis.com>
> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:08 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
> >
> >
> > > Rik,
> > >
> > >    I'm certainly not going to disagree with you on anything diesel!
> > > Clearly, my truck is more than overkill for the R22.  When I just had
>the
> > > Rhodes, the motor in my Jeep Cherokee was just fine.  The vehicle was
a
> > > little light for my taste, but the motor was more than adequate.
> > >
> > > I also heard about problems with the drive train not being up to the
> > diesel.
> > > Like, when Dodge first introduced the Cummins as an option, there was
a
> > > problem with farmers snapping the driveshaft because they were pulling
a
> > > fully loaded wagon out of a field.  The motor was up to it, but the
rest
> > > couldn't handle the additional torque.  I shouldn't have the
>transmission
> > > problem (knock on wood), as ours has the 6 speed manual tranny built
by
> > ZF.
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't had the cold weather problems, at least not yet.  We start
>with
> > a
> > > much warmer winter than you do, though.  I think that the newer motors
> > have
> > > much better cold weather starting than the old ones.
> > >
> > > Now, about what else I should know...
> > > Fuel types... I can never keep track of all of this.  I usually just
buy
> > > whatever diesel is in the pump. Sometimes that is at the car pumps,
but
> > > sometimes it is at the pumps that the trucks use.  What are the
> > differences,
> > > if any? And cold weather?
> > > I normally use No.2 diesel, but think I'm supposed to use No.1 if the
> > > weather turns really cold (for Ohio).  Am I correct?
> > >
> > > Then there is the water separator... I've always wondered what I'm
> > supposed
> > > to do with the water I drain out of the separator.  Is there somewhere
>to
> > > dispose of it at a gas station?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rik Sandberg [mailto:racerrik@rea-alp.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:45 PM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe,
> > >
> > > Seems like from what I am hearing, it isn't the engines in the diesel
> > > pickups that are the problem. Looks to me like the manufacturers are
> > having
> > > trouble building automatic transmissions that will stand up to the
>diesel.
> > I
> > > know several guys that have had all three major brands of diesel
pickups
> > and
> > > most have had no engine trouble to speak of, but have had lots of
> > > transmission trouble. Then there's my brother's 7.3 ford that's had
> > trouble
> > > with both.
> > >
> > > I'm with Brad a little on this. A diesel pickup is not necessarily a
>great
> > > thing for the more casual driver. Fuel is sometimes harder to locate.
It
> > is
> > > also helpful if one understands a little about diesel fuel types,
water
> > (in
> > > the fuel), fuel filters, cold temperatures and glow plugs. One of my
pet
> > > peeves with my old diesel (older Chevy 6.2) was the way the glow plugs
> > kept
> > > cycling on after the engine was running. I finally took them off of
>their
> > > sensors and hooked them up to only work manually. I had no more
problems
> > > after that. If you should ever happen to get into any cold weather
with
> > your
> > > new diesel, I hope you have studied up on this subject, because you
can
> > get
> > > in trouble real fast with a diesel if it turns cold on you.
> > >
> > > A diesel pickup is really kinda overkill for pulling an R 22. If all
you
> > are
> > > worried about is pulling the guts out of your gas pickup because
you're
> > > pulling your boat, this should not be a concern to you. Our boats are
>not
> > a
> > > big load to virtually any V-8 made today. Heck, my gas V-6 handles the
R
> > 22,
> > > no sweat. Also, it seems the fuel mileage on these new diesels isn't
> > > necessarily so good anymore, since they started turning up the pumps
for
> > > better horsepower numbers. Most of the new gas engines seem to pound
out
> > > 150,000 miles or so pretty regularly these days.
> > >
> > > Rik
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gardner, Douglas L. (LNG-DAY)" <douglas.gardner@lexisnexis.com>
> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:40 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
> > >
> > >
> > > > Joe,
> > > >
> > > > I have a Dodge 3500 with the Cummins, and love it.
> > > > Data says that the average miles between an engine rebuild for the
> > Cummins
> > > > is 300K.  My understanding is that the new GM diesel (Duramax) is
> > > excellent
> > > > as well. If I recall correctly, the Duramax is built by Isuzu (also
> > known
> > > > for their diesel engines).
> > > >
> > > > I've heard mixed reviews on the International engines in the Fords,
>but
> > > have
> > > > no data to back it up.  Like Brad, I have spoken to a lot of Ford
>diesel
> > > > owners who swear by them. I'm sure that all 3 motors are far
superior
>to
> > > > their gasoline counterparts.  My guess is that opinions on them are
> > > largely
> > > > influenced by brand loyalty/hatred rather than true quality
concerns.
> > > Many
> > > > truck owners have the "I wouldn't own a Chevy (or Ford or Dodge) if
>you
> > > paid
> > > > me" attitude. Today, my wife is anti-GM.  Who knows what next year
>will
> > > > bring.
> > > >
> > > >   Worth the extra cost?  A friend of mine pointed out that you can
buy
>a
> > > LOT
> > > > of gasoline for $4K. It really depends on how you use it. I like to
> > drive
> > > a
> > > > vehicle until it dies, so the plan on the truck was to have it for
>many,
> > > > many years.
> > > >
> > > > --Doug
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: brad haslett [mailto:flybrad@yahoo.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:39 PM
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Diesel Powered Trucks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Joe, I know of at least 20 guys at work that have Ford
> > > > F-250's with diesels and they swear by them. Dodge
> > > > uses a Cummins diesel which is good too. I don't know
> > > > much about GM's because I'm just not a GM kinda guy.
> > > > Pretty good mileage for the size and the engine is
> > > > good for 200K.  The downside is that they are
> > > > expensive (about 4k more on the front end) and you now
> > > > can't pull into any convenience store for fuel.  I
> > > > drove a Mercedes diesel for 200K miles and my son
> > > > drove it another 75K. The car was getting rather tired
> > > > but the engine was still going strong, typical of good
> > > > diesel engines.  Going down the interstate is no
> > > > problem, just look for Ric, and follow him to fuel.
> > > > Around town, especially in a strange city, it can
> > > > become a major PITA to find fuel. For me personally,
> > > > the extra front end expense and convenience has kept
> > > > me out of returning to diesel but they do last a long,
> > > > long time. If I did a lot of heavy towing (heavier
> > > > than the R-22) the diesel would definately be the
> > > > ticket.  If your current truck is in good shape other
> > > > than the miles, you might consider running it until
> > > > the engine dies and then repower with a rebuilt Jasper
> > > > engine.  They are not cheap but Jasper's are probably
> > > > the best rebuilt engines on the market.
> > > >
> > > > Brad Haslett
> > > > "CoraShen"
> > > > --- "Ware, Joseph W." <joseph_ware@merck.com> wrote:
> > > > > Any one have good information on the longevity of a
> > > > > diesel motor in a pickup
> > > > > vs. a regular gas motor?  I'm in the market and will
> > > > > be putting on about
> > > > > 20,000 miles a year for the next 8 years.  Either I
> > > > > run my current gas motor
> > > > > to death, (it already has 120,000 miles on it), or I
> > > > > pickup a new diesel
> > > > > which I hear can handle the extra miles.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
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