[Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
Roger Pihlaja
cen09402 at centurytel.net
Wed Dec 10 13:31:54 EST 2003
Todd,
The "detonation" you are hearing under light to moderate acceleration may be
normal. Modern engine management systems utilize a "knock sensor", tied
into the ignition advance and fuel injection systems. The knock sensor is a
little piezoelectric microphone that "listens" for the characteristic audio
signature of preignition or knock as it is transmitted thru the metal of the
engine block. The engine managment system adjusts the fuel injection and
spark timing parameters until the knock just barely goes away. But, the
system is always searching for the edge of the knock envelope, because that
is where the optimum in lowest exhaust emissions and peak fuel efficiency
lies. The most likely vehicle condition to experience knock is under
acceleration. It's not uncommon for these systems to briefly knock under
these conditions. If the noise really bothers you; then, you can make it
stop by switching to more expensive premium fuel. But, the sound is not
hurting anything, so you don't have to.
"Oxygenated fuel" refers to fuel which has an oxygen containing additive,
commonly ethanol. All else being equal, oxygenated fuels burn more
completely at a lower peak combustion temperature than nonoxygenated
hydrocarbons. This results in less unburned hydrocarbon & less NOx
emissions, particularly during the cold start and partially warm conditions.
That's why many localities switch to oxygenated gasoline during the winter
months. They don't really have any choice assuming they don't want to be in
violation of the Clean Air act. Experiencing too many "smog alert" days per
month can cause the EPA to declare an area in violation of the Clean Air act
& put literally billions of Federal tax dollars in dozens of programs at
risk. The Federal governmant wields a big stick in this area.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:24 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
> Rik,
>
> >>idea is top keep the fuel warmed above this cloud point
> temperature, or
> to lower the cloud point temperature by adding chemicals<<<
>
> Are these fuel additive chemicals mixed into the fuel by the fuel
vendor, or do you have to measure and pour them into your tanks at fill up?
>
>
> Roger,
>
> The gasoline stations in my area start in November to dispense
"oxygenated" gasoline. Is is supposed to lower emmissions during the cold
winter months.
>
> In my 2000 Mazda B 2500 pick-up with a 2.5L and my 1999 Dodge with a
318 Magnum V-8, the net result is detonation under light to moderate
acceleration (which probably results in higher hydrocarbon emmissions).
This means I have to run mid-grade or premium just to get "normal"
performance. Is this a legitimate process, or they trying to increase
sales?? Neither vehicles' owner manuals require running anything higher
than regular grade fuel. I commute 100 miles/day and my wife commutes to
school 80 miles/day, and this adds $100 per month onto the fuel bill.
>
> Has anyone else had this problem?
>
> Todd
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rik Sandberg <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:19:14 -0600
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What's The Difference Between #1, #2, #3, ...
,#6 Fuel Oil?
>
> > Roger,
> >
> > Excellent desciption of diesels and why/how they work. Far better than I
> > could have done.
> >
> > The most important point in Rogers post concerning winter operations
with
> > diesels is when he talks about the cloud point. This is what what most
people
> > think of as the point where diesel fuel "gells" I doubt that one could
see
> > this in their cars of SUVs. In a truck though, you can easily see into
the
> > fuel tanks and when your fuel is cold enough to be at the cloud point,
it is
> > readily visible. You will start to see a "waxy" sort of layer floating
on to
> > of the fuel and the fuel below will not appear clear anymore, but
cloudy. The
> > whole idea is top keep the fuel warmed above this cloud point
temperature, or
> > to lower the cloud point temperature by adding chemicals. My experience
has
> > been that not all brands of diesel fuel have the same cloud point
> > temperature. Or, perhaps this can even vary from one batch to another at
the
> > same station. Also not all cloud point lowering chemical treatments are
> > created equal, some seem to be better than others.
> >
> > When you are dirving in extremely cold weather, it becomes much more
> > difficult to keep your fuel warmed above the cloud point, because the
"wind
> > chill" will remove the heat from your fuel tanks, perhaps faster than it
is
> > being rewarmed by your engine. Diesel engines have what is called a fuel
> > by-pass. That is, not all of the fuel that is pumped from the tank is
> > injected into the cylinders and burned. Some of it is bypasses the
injector
> > pump and is returned to the tank. During this round trip, it is warmed.
The
> > secret to the whole thing is to conserve enough of the warmth, or to add
even
> > more with an additional fuel heater, to keep the fuel in the tank above
the
> > cloud point. If you can do this, your diesel will continue to run, no
matter
> > how cold it gets. Fail to do this and you will eventually end up with
plugged
> > fuel filters and a cold walk in your future.
> >
> > Mostly from the school of hard knox
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > On 12/10/2003 08:14 am, you wrote:
> > > Hi Everybody,
> > >
> > > The 1st thing you need to know is that crude oil is a very complex
mixture
> > > of literally thousands of different organic, inorganic, and
organo-metallic
> > > compounds & the specific composition varies greatly between crude oils
from
> > > different fields. One of the first processing steps in an oil
refinery is
> > > to send the crude oil thru a distillation tower. In the distillation
> > > tower, the components in the crude oil mixture are separated into
fractions
> > > by their boiling point ranges. The components with the lowest boiling
> > > points come out the top of the distillation tower as vapor. These
would
> > > include compounds like methane, ethane, ethylene, propane, and butane.
> > > These so called "light components" are sent to another distillation
tower
> > > which operates at cryogenic temperature for further separation. Going
down
> > > the crude oil distillation tower, fractions with greater & greater
boiling
> > > point ranges are removed as liquid side streams. From the top of the
tower
> > > down, these fractions are: gasoline or naphtha, JP-4, kerosene or #1
fuel
> > > oil, #2 fuel oil, #4 fuel oil, #5 light, #5 heavy, & #6 fuel oil. #3
fuel
> > > oil is not an official API crude oil fraction designation because it
would
> > > have to be removed from the distillation tower very near the feed
port.
> > > Removal of this #3 fuel oil side stream in the vicinity of the feed
port
> > > would tend to upset the operation of the distillation tower. Believe
me,
> > > achieving stable on-spec operation of a distillation tower with 9 or
10
> > > product streams & a variable feed stock is one of the most difficult
> > > process control problems in all of chemical engineering, even without
> > > screwing up the column operation by removing a side stream near the
feed
> > > port! Sometimes refineries will cut a deal with a local business &
sell
> > > them a product called #3 fuel oil with a boiling point range
intermediate
> > > between #2 fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. But, it's always made by blending
#2
> > > fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. Remember, all these products are not pure
> > > compounds. They are complex mixtures that meet a boiling point range
> > > specification.
> > >
> > > OK, so what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
> > > light? The fuel injection system in a diesel engine has a number of ve
ry
> > > precisely machined, highly polished components that meter & atomize
the
> > > fuel. These pieces/parts depend upon the lubricating qualities of the
fuel
> > > oil to lubricate & cool them as they operate. A fuel oil that's too
light
> > > will not have the oil film strength (basically viscosity) to prevent
> > > metal-to-metal contact in the fuel injection system. The fuel
injection
> > > system will self-destruct in short order. In addition, a fuel oil
that's
> > > too light will have a boiling point range outside of the design range
of
> > > the fuel injection system. Remember, the fuel injection system is
located
> > > right next to a hot engine. If the light fuel oil starts vaporizing
inside
> > > the injection pump &/or injectors, the system will stop working.
There
> > > will be instant catastrophic metal-to-metal contact & the system will
seize
> > > up. Finally, smooth operation of the diesel engine depends upon the
> > > atomized droplets of fuel in the combustion chamber behaving in a
> > > predictable manner. Basically, what's supposed to happen is that in
the
> > > microseconds immediately following fuel injection, the light
components of
> > > the diesel oil mixture start boiling out of each droplet. These light
> > > components mix as a vapor with the air in the combustion chamber,
> > > eventually forming a mixture with a composition within the flammable
range.
> > > Somewhere in this vapor space, the flammable mixture lights off due
to the
> > > adiabatic heat of compression (remember it's a diesel - no spark
plugs).
> > > The flame front rapidly consumes all the fuel present as a vapor &
ends up
> > > burning at the surface of the remaining droplets of fuel. These
droplets
> > > of fuel progressively boil up their remaining lightest components &
the
> > > remaining droplet gets enriched in heavy boiling components. Under
heavy
> > > load, there isn't enough time available during the 4-cycle engine's
power
> > > stroke to completely combust the heaviest components. These heavy
> > > components get ejected with the exhaust gases & we see them as diesel
smoke
> > > & soot. If there are too much light boiling components in the diesel
fuel;
> > > then, too much of the droplet vaporizes in-between fuel injection &
> > > ignition. Two things can happen. Ignition can actually occur while
the
> > > fuel injectors are still atomizing fuel. The fuel injectors were not
> > > designed to have a high temperature flame impinging on them while they
are
> > > in operation atomizing fuel & they can be damaged. The other thing
that
> > > can happen is that a relatively large amount of light boiling
components
> > > end up in the vapor space prior to ignition. When this big fuel
charge
> > > lights off, combustion is too rapid & the
> > > pressure/temperature in the combustion chamber exceeds design limits.
This
> > > can cause problems like blown head gaskets, holes in pistons, burnt
valve
> > > seats, etc. It's sort of like having the spark timing set incorrectly
on a
> > > gasoline engine &/or using a fuel with too low an octane number for
the
> > > spark ignited engine's compression ratio. In fact, diesel fuels
actually
> > > have a "cetane number", which is the opposite of an "octane number".
A
> > > high cetane number means the fuel will preignite very readily. Diesel
> > > fuels have a low octane number and a high cetane number. The optimum
> > > injection timing in a diesel engine strongly depends upon the lag time
> > > between fuel atomization & initial light off & this lag time is mostly
> > > controlled by the boiling point range of the diesel fuel.
> > >
> > > So what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
heavy?
> > > The viscosity of the fuel oil goes up along with the boiling point
range.
> > > A heavy fuel oil may be too viscous for the fuel system to pump from
the
> > > fuel tank to fuel injection metering system, especially at low
> > > temperatures. In addition, all fuel oils have a specification called
the
> > > "cloud point". Basically that's the temperature at which the fuel oil
> > > becomes visibly cloudy or scatters transmitted light. Physically,
what's
> > > happening is that the heaviest boiling components in the fuel oil have
> > > solidified into micron sized particles of a waxy material. Remember
all
> > > those very precise, highly polished pieces/parts in the fuel injection
> > > system? The diesel engine's fuel system has a system of very fine
mesh
> > > filters & oil/water separators designed to filter out abrasive
particles &
> > > water in order to protect those parts. These waxy particles will clog
up
> > > the fuel filters in a diesel engine very quickly. Winter diesel fuel
> > > additives increase the solubility of these waxy materials so they stay
> > > dissolved. The higher viscosity fuel oil may not atomize properly in
the
> > > fuel injectors, resulting in the atomized droplets being too big in
the
> > > combustion chamber. Bigger droplets result in less surface area for
the
> > > light boiling components to evaporate from. In addition, the heavy
fuel
> > > oil has relatively less of the lighter boiling components in it to
begin
> > > with. So, there are less of the low boiling components present to
vaporize
> > > off the droplets & those that are there vaporize more slowly because
of the
> > > bigger droplets to mix with the air in the combustion chamber to light
the
> > > fire. In other words, especially at low temperature, the engine may
not
> > > even run on this fuel. That's why diesel engines have glow plugs
> > > (combustion chamber preheaters) for winter operation. Even if the
diesel
> > > engine does run on this fuel, a much larger % of the combustion will
be of
> > > the slower, less efficient variety wherein burning occurs at the
surface of
> > > the droplets. I would expect the engine would be down on power & the
> > > exhaust would be very smoky & sooty.
> > >
> > > So, although diesel engines can theoretically burn a wide range of
fuels;
> > > in reality, they are pretty finicky about what they will reliably run
on.
> > >
> > > There, that's probably much more than you ever wanted to know re fuel
oil
> > > specifications & how diesel engines work. Hopefully, I answered your
> > > question.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:31 AM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > >
> > > > Dan, Rik and Rummy,
> > > > Dan thank you for the latest on Ford's diesels, and for your
> > > > inputs on diesel fuel and additives.
> > > > Maybe we can get Roger to explain the chemical differences
> > > > during the Christmas holidays, if he gets them.
> > > > As for #3, it was used in big locomotive engines during the
> > > > transition from coal to diesel. It was used to generate steam.
> > > > Ed K
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Meltzer
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:28 PM
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > >
> > > > thanks, I will watch it and take it easly on the centen booster, BTW
> > > > mine might be a early one 3/2003(did not know it until I picked
> > > > it up), is their anything I should watch out for or bitch to the
dealer
> > > > about?(reflash the chip)
> > > >
> > > > MJM
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dan Bodnar" <dsbodnar at earthlink.net>
> > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:23 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > >
> > > > > Michael,
> > > > > I've had several of the old 7.3L Diesels in E350 Vans. The last
one I
> > > >
> > > > owned
> > > >
> > > > > was in 2001 and it had glow plugs and a fuel heater and I'm fairly
> > > >
> > > > certain
> > > >
> > > > > that the new 6.0L still has the fuel heater. I'm in the Metro
Detroit
> > > >
> > > > area
> > > >
> > > > > and we rarely have nights much colder than -10 degrees. I learned
> > > >
> > > > that I
> > > >
> > > > > did not need to plug it in unless it was going to be colder than
10
> > > >
> > > > below
> > > >
> > > > > 'cause the diesel started fine. I did plug it in when I knew it
would
> > > >
> > > > be
> > > >
> > > > > colder than 10 below at night just to be safe. But, having
forgotten
> > > >
> > > > to do
> > > >
> > > > > it a few times, taught me that they would start using just the
> > > >
> > > > recommended
> > > >
> > > > > start procedure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, fresh winter grade fuel, or some Premium diesel (which I
think
> > > >
> > > > is
> > > >
> > > > > really #1) and your diesel should do fine. Also make sure that the
> > > >
> > > > water
> > > >
> > > > > separator really does get drained with every oil change. I never
had a
> > > > > diesel not start. They were a little smoky sometimes when it was
zero
> > > >
> > > > or
> > > >
> > > > > colder, but they always started. I only used a diesel fuel
> > > >
> > > > conditioner on
> > > >
> > > > > one trip into Michigan's Upper Peninsula where I knew I was going
to
> > > >
> > > > have
> > > >
> > > > > 20+ below-zero weather. I don't remember the gel point of diesel
> > > >
> > > > either,
> > > >
> > > > > but I'm pretty sure it is lower than 15 below... now that I think
> > > >
> > > > about it,
> > > >
> > > > > if the numbers aren't in the diesel supplement to your owner's
manual,
> > > >
> > > > then
> > > >
> > > > > the gel point is printed on the back of some of the bottles of
fuel
> > > > > conditioner. Oh, and with the new 6.0L electronically controlled
> > > >
> > > > diesel, if
> > > >
> > > > > you decide to use a fuel conditioner, "more is NOT better".
Raising
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > > flash point of the fuel too far will play havoc with proper
> > > >
> > > > combustion.
> > > >
> > > > > We had some initial growing pains with the new 6.0L Diesel, but
the
> > > >
> > > > reports
> > > >
> > > > > I'm seeing lately say that the late 2003 and 2004 units are top
> > > >
> > > > drawer.
> > > >
> > > > > Dan Bodnar
> > > > > SV QOL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> > > >
> > > > Meltzer
> > > >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:46 PM
> > > > > To: sanderico at earthlink.net; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > > >
> > > > > That nice to know, under a little knowage is dangerous I heard
that
> > > >
> > > > use
> > > >
> > > > > Kerosene can be use up to 20% in the winter, also almost
> > > > > anything can go into a disel engine, like bio-disel, made from
used
> > > >
> > > > frechfry
> > > >
> > > > > oil :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > MJM
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> > > > > To: <kroposki at innova.net>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:54 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > #1 fuel oil and kerosene are not the same thing. Kerosene is
more
> > > > >
> > > > > "refined"
> > > > >
> > > > > > than #1 oil. #3 fuel oil is an even heavier oil than #2. I think
> > > >
> > > > they use
> > > >
> > > > > it
> > > > >
> > > > > > for firing funaces (like asphalt plants) and things, industrial
> > > >
> > > > stuff more
> > > >
> > > > > > down south than up around here. It's heavy enough that you have
to
> > > >
> > > > warm it
> > > >
> > > > > up
> > > > >
> > > > > > before it will light easily. Not an expert on this though :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did run across a guy from down south a few years ago that
claimed
> > > >
> > > > to be
> > > >
> > > > > > using #3 oil in the truck he was driving. It was about -20 F
that
> > > >
> > > > night
> > > >
> > > > > and I
> > > > >
> > > > > > stopped to help him as his truck was froze up (fuel gelled) on
the
> > > >
> > > > side of
> > > >
> > > > > > I-94. Poor bastard was out in that shit in nothing but a light
> > > >
> > > > jacket and
> > > >
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > > t-shirt. He was, to say the least, happy to see me. I would
imagine
> > > >
> > > > that
> > > >
> > > > > they
> > > > >
> > > > > > had to drain whatever fuel was in that truck and start over with
all
> > > >
> > > > new,
> > > >
> > > > > > lighter fuel before that truck would ever go anywhere again
before
> > > >
> > > > spring.
> > > >
> > > > > I
> > > > >
> > > > > > think he learned that some of the things you can get away with
down
> > > >
> > > > south,
> > > >
> > > > > > won't get you very far up here when it gets cold. Up here, we've
got
> > > >
> > > > real
> > > >
> > > > > > honest to God.......COLD!!!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rik
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12/08/2003 08:16 pm, you wrote:
> > > > > > > KEROSENE! What is # 3 used for? and yes there is a #3. Hey
guys
> > > >
> > > > help
> > > >
> > > > > > > Rummy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed
K
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've always just known it as #1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________________________
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