[Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
Michael Meltzer
mjm at michaelmeltzer.com
Wed Dec 10 23:13:36 EST 2003
thanks, know what spares to bring.
MJM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rik Sanberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
> Todd,
>
> Generally, if you buy a "winter blend" of diesel fuel at a gas station, it
> is the same #2 fuel you use all the time with some #1 fuel blended in. This
> is plenty good enough, most of the time. It is possible that some suppliers
> put in some other additives, but I couldn't say who they are or what they
> add.
>
> For our trucks, we have a 10,000 gallon tank that we fill them from at the
> shop. We buy our fuel 7700 gallons at a time, this is about what a semi
> tractor/trailer tanker rig (18 wheel) can haul We have had our supplier
> offer to add in "cloud point modifiers" when they deliver this fuel in the
> winter. We do not do this, because it doesn't make good financial sense to
> have these additives in the fuel unless it is very cold out. Most of the
> time, even in Minnesota, it is not cold enough to need this stuff if the
> fuel is blended properly. This is especially true since the truck
> manufacturers have started adding fuel heaters to their trucks. With fuel
> heaters we have been able to cut our blend down by almost half.
>
> For your private diesel car/truck I would keep a can or two of Polar
> Power/Power Service/Siloo/JB, or whatever your current favorite cloud point
> modifier might be, in the car. We like Polar Power. You can add this stuff
> when problems arise, or if you know you are going out into some very
> extreme weather, probably -10 or colder. These products are anything but
> inexpensive. I don't think you would want to be putting it in at every
> fill, all winter long and it generally isn't necessary. The winter blends
> of #2 with #1 added are usually sufficient. My advice to Michael and to
> anyone else with a diesel, is to find a fuel supplier that knows what he is
> selling and why. Then you can make an educated judgement as to what steps
> you might need to take to cover your butt for the conditions you are going
> to be out in from one day to the next since conditions can vary so much.
>
> I say "add this stuff when problems arise". If you are traveling in extreme
> cold and your car/truck starts to lose power or run poorly, the trouble is,
> your fuel has reached it's cloud point and your filters are starting to
> plug. You must recognise this right away and add your "cloud point
> modifier" to the fuel tank. Once your engine has stopped circulating the
> fuel you're screwed, so you must stop immediately and add this stuff, while
> your engine is still running. I don't care what the directions say, add in
> about twice what it says if you want to have a descent chance of getting
> going again. This is, again from the school of hard knocks and cold walks.
> :-) I wouldn't imagine that most of you, east or south of me will see this
> happen very often if you are buying a fuel, properly blended in the first
> place, for the conditions in your area. Again, ask your supplier what he is
> selling you and why. If he can't give you a good answer, find another,
> better, supplier.
>
> Having an extra primary fuel filter or two and the tools (and knowledge)
> you need to change it are one of the top things on our winter driving
> preparations list. You generally also want to have a jug of fuel with you
> too, because you will need to fill the new filter before you put it on. In
> a pinch, I have put some heat to the filter to warm it enough for the
> parrafin to melt back into the fuel. I have used everything from propane
> torches to rags wrapped on a stick, dipped in the fuel tank to do this. I
> wouldn't recommend the last way though, it makes quite a blaze. Also, if
> you're not a smoker, you probably won't have anything to light it with. :-)
> This was on a night where it was about -40 and I had frozen up twice
> already that trip and was fresh out of new fuel filters. You'd be amazed at
> the lengths one will go to, to keep from freezing to death at 2 o:clock in
> the morning on the side of some deserted highway. :-)
>
>
> Rik
>
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:24:32 -0500, Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Rik,
> >
> >>> idea is top keep the fuel warmed above this cloud point
> > temperature, or to lower the cloud point temperature by adding
> > chemicals<<<
> >
> > Are these fuel additive chemicals mixed into the fuel by the fuel vendor,
> > or do you have to measure and pour them into your tanks at fill up?
> >
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > The gasoline stations in my area start in November to dispense
> > "oxygenated" gasoline. Is is supposed to lower emmissions during the
> > cold winter months.
> >
> > In my 2000 Mazda B 2500 pick-up with a 2.5L and my 1999 Dodge with a 318
> > Magnum V-8, the net result is detonation under light to moderate
> > acceleration (which probably results in higher hydrocarbon emmissions).
> > This means I have to run mid-grade or premium just to get "normal"
> > performance. Is this a legitimate process, or they trying to increase
> > sales?? Neither vehicles' owner manuals require running anything higher
> > than regular grade fuel. I commute 100 miles/day and my wife commutes to
> > school 80 miles/day, and this adds $100 per month onto the fuel bill.
> >
> > Has anyone else had this problem?
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Rik Sandberg <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:19:14 -0600
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What's The Difference Between #1, #2, #3,
> > ... ,#6 Fuel Oil?
> >
> >> Roger,
> >>
> >> Excellent desciption of diesels and why/how they work. Far better than I
> >> could have done.
> >>
> >> The most important point in Rogers post concerning winter operations
> >> with diesels is when he talks about the cloud point. This is what what
> >> most people think of as the point where diesel fuel "gells" I doubt that
> >> one could see this in their cars of SUVs. In a truck though, you can
> >> easily see into the fuel tanks and when your fuel is cold enough to be
> >> at the cloud point, it is readily visible. You will start to see a
> >> "waxy" sort of layer floating on to of the fuel and the fuel below will
> >> not appear clear anymore, but cloudy. The whole idea is top keep the
> >> fuel warmed above this cloud point temperature, or to lower the cloud
> >> point temperature by adding chemicals. My experience has been that not
> >> all brands of diesel fuel have the same cloud point temperature. Or,
> >> perhaps this can even vary from one batch to another at the same
> >> station. Also not all cloud point lowering chemical treatments are
> >> created equal, some seem to be better than others.
> >>
> >> When you are dirving in extremely cold weather, it becomes much more
> >> difficult to keep your fuel warmed above the cloud point, because the
> >> "wind chill" will remove the heat from your fuel tanks, perhaps faster
> >> than it is being rewarmed by your engine. Diesel engines have what is
> >> called a fuel by-pass. That is, not all of the fuel that is pumped from
> >> the tank is injected into the cylinders and burned. Some of it is
> >> bypasses the injector pump and is returned to the tank. During this
> >> round trip, it is warmed. The secret to the whole thing is to conserve
> >> enough of the warmth, or to add even more with an additional fuel
> >> heater, to keep the fuel in the tank above the cloud point. If you can
> >> do this, your diesel will continue to run, no matter how cold it gets.
> >> Fail to do this and you will eventually end up with plugged fuel filters
> >> and a cold walk in your future.
> >>
> >> Mostly from the school of hard knox
> >>
> >> Rik
> >>
> >> On 12/10/2003 08:14 am, you wrote:
> >> > Hi Everybody,
> >> >
> >> > The 1st thing you need to know is that crude oil is a very complex
> >> mixture
> >> > of literally thousands of different organic, inorganic, and organo-
> >> metallic
> >> > compounds & the specific composition varies greatly between crude oils
> >> from
> >> > different fields. One of the first processing steps in an oil
> >> refinery is
> >> > to send the crude oil thru a distillation tower. In the distillation
> >> > tower, the components in the crude oil mixture are separated into
> >> fractions
> >> > by their boiling point ranges. The components with the lowest boiling
> >> > points come out the top of the distillation tower as vapor. These
> >> would
> >> > include compounds like methane, ethane, ethylene, propane, and butane.
> >> > These so called "light components" are sent to another distillation
> >> tower
> >> > which operates at cryogenic temperature for further separation. Going
> >> down
> >> > the crude oil distillation tower, fractions with greater & greater
> >> boiling
> >> > point ranges are removed as liquid side streams. From the top of the
> >> tower
> >> > down, these fractions are: gasoline or naphtha, JP-4, kerosene or #1
> >> fuel
> >> > oil, #2 fuel oil, #4 fuel oil, #5 light, #5 heavy, & #6 fuel oil. #3
> >> fuel
> >> > oil is not an official API crude oil fraction designation because it
> >> would
> >> > have to be removed from the distillation tower very near the feed
> >> port. > Removal of this #3 fuel oil side stream in the vicinity of the
> >> feed port
> >> > would tend to upset the operation of the distillation tower. Believe
> >> me,
> >> > achieving stable on-spec operation of a distillation tower with 9 or
> >> 10
> >> > product streams & a variable feed stock is one of the most difficult
> >> > process control problems in all of chemical engineering, even without
> >> > screwing up the column operation by removing a side stream near the
> >> feed
> >> > port! Sometimes refineries will cut a deal with a local business &
> >> sell
> >> > them a product called #3 fuel oil with a boiling point range
> >> intermediate
> >> > between #2 fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. But, it's always made by blending
> >> #2
> >> > fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. Remember, all these products are not pure
> >> > compounds. They are complex mixtures that meet a boiling point range
> >> > specification.
> >> >
> >> > OK, so what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
> >> > light? The fuel injection system in a diesel engine has a number of
> >> very
> >> > precisely machined, highly polished components that meter & atomize
> >> the
> >> > fuel. These pieces/parts depend upon the lubricating qualities of the
> >> fuel
> >> > oil to lubricate & cool them as they operate. A fuel oil that's too
> >> light
> >> > will not have the oil film strength (basically viscosity) to prevent
> >> > metal-to-metal contact in the fuel injection system. The fuel
> >> injection
> >> > system will self-destruct in short order. In addition, a fuel oil
> >> that's
> >> > too light will have a boiling point range outside of the design range
> >> of
> >> > the fuel injection system. Remember, the fuel injection system is
> >> located
> >> > right next to a hot engine. If the light fuel oil starts vaporizing
> >> inside
> >> > the injection pump &/or injectors, the system will stop working.
> >> There
> >> > will be instant catastrophic metal-to-metal contact & the system will
> >> seize
> >> > up. Finally, smooth operation of the diesel engine depends upon the
> >> > atomized droplets of fuel in the combustion chamber behaving in a
> >> > predictable manner. Basically, what's supposed to happen is that in
> >> the
> >> > microseconds immediately following fuel injection, the light
> >> components of
> >> > the diesel oil mixture start boiling out of each droplet. These light
> >> > components mix as a vapor with the air in the combustion chamber,
> >> > eventually forming a mixture with a composition within the flammable
> >> range.
> >> > Somewhere in this vapor space, the flammable mixture lights off due
> >> to the
> >> > adiabatic heat of compression (remember it's a diesel - no spark
> >> plugs). > The flame front rapidly consumes all the fuel present as a
> >> vapor & ends up
> >> > burning at the surface of the remaining droplets of fuel. These
> >> droplets
> >> > of fuel progressively boil up their remaining lightest components &
> >> the
> >> > remaining droplet gets enriched in heavy boiling components. Under
> >> heavy
> >> > load, there isn't enough time available during the 4-cycle engine's
> >> power
> >> > stroke to completely combust the heaviest components. These heavy
> >> > components get ejected with the exhaust gases & we see them as diesel
> >> smoke
> >> > & soot. If there are too much light boiling components in the diesel
> >> fuel;
> >> > then, too much of the droplet vaporizes in-between fuel injection &
> >> > ignition. Two things can happen. Ignition can actually occur while
> >> the
> >> > fuel injectors are still atomizing fuel. The fuel injectors were not
> >> > designed to have a high temperature flame impinging on them while they
> >> are
> >> > in operation atomizing fuel & they can be damaged. The other thing
> >> that
> >> > can happen is that a relatively large amount of light boiling
> >> components
> >> > end up in the vapor space prior to ignition. When this big fuel
> >> charge
> >> > lights off, combustion is too rapid & the
> >> > pressure/temperature in the combustion chamber exceeds design limits.
> >> This
> >> > can cause problems like blown head gaskets, holes in pistons, burnt
> >> valve
> >> > seats, etc. It's sort of like having the spark timing set incorrectly
> >> on a
> >> > gasoline engine &/or using a fuel with too low an octane number for
> >> the
> >> > spark ignited engine's compression ratio. In fact, diesel fuels
> >> actually
> >> > have a "cetane number", which is the opposite of an "octane number".
> >> A
> >> > high cetane number means the fuel will preignite very readily. Diesel
> >> > fuels have a low octane number and a high cetane number. The optimum
> >> > injection timing in a diesel engine strongly depends upon the lag time
> >> > between fuel atomization & initial light off & this lag time is mostly
> >> > controlled by the boiling point range of the diesel fuel.
> >> >
> >> > So what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
> >> heavy?
> >> > The viscosity of the fuel oil goes up along with the boiling point
> >> range. > A heavy fuel oil may be too viscous for the fuel system to pump
> >> from the
> >> > fuel tank to fuel injection metering system, especially at low
> >> > temperatures. In addition, all fuel oils have a specification called
> >> the
> >> > "cloud point". Basically that's the temperature at which the fuel oil
> >> > becomes visibly cloudy or scatters transmitted light. Physically,
> >> what's
> >> > happening is that the heaviest boiling components in the fuel oil have
> >> > solidified into micron sized particles of a waxy material. Remember
> >> all
> >> > those very precise, highly polished pieces/parts in the fuel injection
> >> > system? The diesel engine's fuel system has a system of very fine
> >> mesh
> >> > filters & oil/water separators designed to filter out abrasive
> >> particles &
> >> > water in order to protect those parts. These waxy particles will clog
> >> up
> >> > the fuel filters in a diesel engine very quickly. Winter diesel fuel
> >> > additives increase the solubility of these waxy materials so they stay
> >> > dissolved. The higher viscosity fuel oil may not atomize properly in
> >> the
> >> > fuel injectors, resulting in the atomized droplets being too big in
> >> the
> >> > combustion chamber. Bigger droplets result in less surface area for
> >> the
> >> > light boiling components to evaporate from. In addition, the heavy
> >> fuel
> >> > oil has relatively less of the lighter boiling components in it to
> >> begin
> >> > with. So, there are less of the low boiling components present to
> >> vaporize
> >> > off the droplets & those that are there vaporize more slowly because
> >> of the
> >> > bigger droplets to mix with the air in the combustion chamber to light
> >> the
> >> > fire. In other words, especially at low temperature, the engine may
> >> not
> >> > even run on this fuel. That's why diesel engines have glow plugs
> >> > (combustion chamber preheaters) for winter operation. Even if the
> >> diesel
> >> > engine does run on this fuel, a much larger % of the combustion will
> >> be of
> >> > the slower, less efficient variety wherein burning occurs at the
> >> surface of
> >> > the droplets. I would expect the engine would be down on power & the
> >> > exhaust would be very smoky & sooty.
> >> >
> >> > So, although diesel engines can theoretically burn a wide range of
> >> fuels;
> >> > in reality, they are pretty finicky about what they will reliably run
> >> on.
> >> >
> >> > There, that's probably much more than you ever wanted to know re fuel
> >> oil
> >> > specifications & how diesel engines work. Hopefully, I answered your
> >> > question.
> >> >
> >> > Roger Pihlaja
> >> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> >> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:31 AM
> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> >> >
> >> > > Dan, Rik and Rummy,
> >> > > Dan thank you for the latest on Ford's diesels, and for your
> >> > > inputs on diesel fuel and additives.
> >> > > Maybe we can get Roger to explain the chemical differences
> >> > > during the Christmas holidays, if he gets them.
> >> > > As for #3, it was used in big locomotive engines during the
> >> > > transition from coal to diesel. It was used to generate steam.
> >> > > Ed K
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >> Meltzer
> >> > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:28 PM
> >> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> >> > >
> >> > > thanks, I will watch it and take it easly on the centen booster, BTW
> >> > > mine might be a early one 3/2003(did not know it until I picked
> >> > > it up), is their anything I should watch out for or bitch to the
> >> dealer
> >> > > about?(reflash the chip)
> >> > >
> >> > > MJM
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: "Dan Bodnar" <dsbodnar at earthlink.net>
> >> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:23 PM
> >> > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> >> > >
> >> > > > Michael,
> >> > > > I've had several of the old 7.3L Diesels in E350 Vans. The last
> >> one I
> >> > >
> >> > > owned
> >> > >
> >> > > > was in 2001 and it had glow plugs and a fuel heater and I'm fairly
> >> > >
> >> > > certain
> >> > >
> >> > > > that the new 6.0L still has the fuel heater. I'm in the Metro
> >> Detroit
> >> > >
> >> > > area
> >> > >
> >> > > > and we rarely have nights much colder than -10 degrees. I learned
> >> > >
> >> > > that I
> >> > >
> >> > > > did not need to plug it in unless it was going to be colder than
> >> 10
> >> > >
> >> > > below
> >> > >
> >> > > > 'cause the diesel started fine. I did plug it in when I knew it
> >> would
> >> > >
> >> > > be
> >> > >
> >> > > > colder than 10 below at night just to be safe. But, having
> >> forgotten
> >> > >
> >> > > to do
> >> > >
> >> > > > it a few times, taught me that they would start using just the
> >> > >
> >> > > recommended
> >> > >
> >> > > > start procedure.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Anyway, fresh winter grade fuel, or some Premium diesel (which I
> >> think
> >> > >
> >> > > is
> >> > >
> >> > > > really #1) and your diesel should do fine. Also make sure that the
> >> > >
> >> > > water
> >> > >
> >> > > > separator really does get drained with every oil change. I never
> >> had a
> >> > > > diesel not start. They were a little smoky sometimes when it was
> >> zero
> >> > >
> >> > > or
> >> > >
> >> > > > colder, but they always started. I only used a diesel fuel
> >> > >
> >> > > conditioner on
> >> > >
> >> > > > one trip into Michigan's Upper Peninsula where I knew I was going
> >> to
> >> > >
> >> > > have
> >> > >
> >> > > > 20+ below-zero weather. I don't remember the gel point of diesel
> >> > >
> >> > > either,
> >> > >
> >> > > > but I'm pretty sure it is lower than 15 below... now that I think
> >> > >
> >> > > about it,
> >> > >
> >> > > > if the numbers aren't in the diesel supplement to your owner's
> >> manual,
> >> > >
> >> > > then
> >> > >
> >> > > > the gel point is printed on the back of some of the bottles of
> >> fuel
> >> > > > conditioner. Oh, and with the new 6.0L electronically controlled
> >> > >
> >> > > diesel, if
> >> > >
> >> > > > you decide to use a fuel conditioner, "more is NOT better".
> >> Raising
> >> > >
> >> > > the
> >> > >
> >> > > > flash point of the fuel too far will play havoc with proper
> >> > >
> >> > > combustion.
> >> > >
> >> > > > We had some initial growing pains with the new 6.0L Diesel, but
> >> the
> >> > >
> >> > > reports
> >> > >
> >> > > > I'm seeing lately say that the late 2003 and 2004 units are top
> >> > >
> >> > > drawer.
> >> > >
> >> > > > Dan Bodnar
> >> > > > SV QOL
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -----Original Message-----From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >> > >
> >> > > Meltzer
> >> > >
> >> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:46 PM
> >> > > > To: sanderico at earthlink.net; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> >> > > >
> >> > > > That nice to know, under a little knowage is dangerous I heard
> >> that
> >> > >
> >> > > use
> >> > >
> >> > > > Kerosene can be use up to 20% in the winter, also almost
> >> > > > anything can go into a disel engine, like bio-disel, made from
> >> used
> >> > >
> >> > > frechfry
> >> > >
> >> > > > oil :-)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > MJM
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> >> > > > To: <kroposki at innova.net>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:54 PM
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Ed,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > #1 fuel oil and kerosene are not the same thing. Kerosene is
> >> more
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "refined"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > than #1 oil. #3 fuel oil is an even heavier oil than #2. I think
> >> > >
> >> > > they use
> >> > >
> >> > > > it
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > for firing funaces (like asphalt plants) and things, industrial
> >> > >
> >> > > stuff more
> >> > >
> >> > > > > down south than up around here. It's heavy enough that you have
> >> to
> >> > >
> >> > > warm it
> >> > >
> >> > > > up
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > before it will light easily. Not an expert on this though :-)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I did run across a guy from down south a few years ago that
> >> claimed
> >> > >
> >> > > to be
> >> > >
> >> > > > > using #3 oil in the truck he was driving. It was about -20 F
> >> that
> >> > >
> >> > > night
> >> > >
> >> > > > and I
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > stopped to help him as his truck was froze up (fuel gelled) on
> >> the
> >> > >
> >> > > side of
> >> > >
> >> > > > > I-94. Poor bastard was out in that shit in nothing but a light
> >> > >
> >> > > jacket and
> >> > >
> >> > > > a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > t-shirt. He was, to say the least, happy to see me. I would
> >> imagine
> >> > >
> >> > > that
> >> > >
> >> > > > they
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > had to drain whatever fuel was in that truck and start over with
> >> all
> >> > >
> >> > > new,
> >> > >
> >> > > > > lighter fuel before that truck would ever go anywhere again
> >> before
> >> > >
> >> > > spring.
> >> > >
> >> > > > I
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > think he learned that some of the things you can get away with
> >> down
> >> > >
> >> > > south,
> >> > >
> >> > > > > won't get you very far up here when it gets cold. Up here, we've
> >> got
> >> > >
> >> > > real
> >> > >
> >> > > > > honest to God.......COLD!!!!!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Rik
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On 12/08/2003 08:16 pm, you wrote:
> >> > > > > > KEROSENE! What is # 3 used for? and yes there is a #3. Hey
> >> guys
> >> > >
> >> > > help
> >> > >
> >> > > > > > Rummy.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Ed
> >> K
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Subject: Re: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I've always just known it as #1.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> > > >
> >> > > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > __________________________________________________
> >> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> > >
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