[Rhodes22-list] More diesel and gasoline questions
Rik Sanberg
sanderico at earthlink.net
Wed Dec 10 13:05:11 EST 2003
Todd,
Generally, if you buy a "winter blend" of diesel fuel at a gas station, it
is the same #2 fuel you use all the time with some #1 fuel blended in. This
is plenty good enough, most of the time. It is possible that some suppliers
put in some other additives, but I couldn't say who they are or what they
add.
For our trucks, we have a 10,000 gallon tank that we fill them from at the
shop. We buy our fuel 7700 gallons at a time, this is about what a semi
tractor/trailer tanker rig (18 wheel) can haul We have had our supplier
offer to add in "cloud point modifiers" when they deliver this fuel in the
winter. We do not do this, because it doesn't make good financial sense to
have these additives in the fuel unless it is very cold out. Most of the
time, even in Minnesota, it is not cold enough to need this stuff if the
fuel is blended properly. This is especially true since the truck
manufacturers have started adding fuel heaters to their trucks. With fuel
heaters we have been able to cut our blend down by almost half.
For your private diesel car/truck I would keep a can or two of Polar
Power/Power Service/Siloo/JB, or whatever your current favorite cloud point
modifier might be, in the car. We like Polar Power. You can add this stuff
when problems arise, or if you know you are going out into some very
extreme weather, probably -10 or colder. These products are anything but
inexpensive. I don't think you would want to be putting it in at every
fill, all winter long and it generally isn't necessary. The winter blends
of #2 with #1 added are usually sufficient. My advice to Michael and to
anyone else with a diesel, is to find a fuel supplier that knows what he is
selling and why. Then you can make an educated judgement as to what steps
you might need to take to cover your butt for the conditions you are going
to be out in from one day to the next since conditions can vary so much.
I say "add this stuff when problems arise". If you are traveling in extreme
cold and your car/truck starts to lose power or run poorly, the trouble is,
your fuel has reached it's cloud point and your filters are starting to
plug. You must recognise this right away and add your "cloud point
modifier" to the fuel tank. Once your engine has stopped circulating the
fuel you're screwed, so you must stop immediately and add this stuff, while
your engine is still running. I don't care what the directions say, add in
about twice what it says if you want to have a descent chance of getting
going again. This is, again from the school of hard knocks and cold walks.
:-) I wouldn't imagine that most of you, east or south of me will see this
happen very often if you are buying a fuel, properly blended in the first
place, for the conditions in your area. Again, ask your supplier what he is
selling you and why. If he can't give you a good answer, find another,
better, supplier.
Having an extra primary fuel filter or two and the tools (and knowledge)
you need to change it are one of the top things on our winter driving
preparations list. You generally also want to have a jug of fuel with you
too, because you will need to fill the new filter before you put it on. In
a pinch, I have put some heat to the filter to warm it enough for the
parrafin to melt back into the fuel. I have used everything from propane
torches to rags wrapped on a stick, dipped in the fuel tank to do this. I
wouldn't recommend the last way though, it makes quite a blaze. Also, if
you're not a smoker, you probably won't have anything to light it with. :-)
This was on a night where it was about -40 and I had frozen up twice
already that trip and was fresh out of new fuel filters. You'd be amazed at
the lengths one will go to, to keep from freezing to death at 2 o:clock in
the morning on the side of some deserted highway. :-)
Rik
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:24:32 -0500, Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com>
wrote:
> Rik,
>
>>> idea is top keep the fuel warmed above this cloud point
> temperature, or to lower the cloud point temperature by adding
> chemicals<<<
>
> Are these fuel additive chemicals mixed into the fuel by the fuel vendor,
> or do you have to measure and pour them into your tanks at fill up?
>
>
> Roger,
>
> The gasoline stations in my area start in November to dispense
> "oxygenated" gasoline. Is is supposed to lower emmissions during the
> cold winter months.
>
> In my 2000 Mazda B 2500 pick-up with a 2.5L and my 1999 Dodge with a 318
> Magnum V-8, the net result is detonation under light to moderate
> acceleration (which probably results in higher hydrocarbon emmissions).
> This means I have to run mid-grade or premium just to get "normal"
> performance. Is this a legitimate process, or they trying to increase
> sales?? Neither vehicles' owner manuals require running anything higher
> than regular grade fuel. I commute 100 miles/day and my wife commutes to
> school 80 miles/day, and this adds $100 per month onto the fuel bill.
>
> Has anyone else had this problem?
>
> Todd
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rik Sandberg <sanderico at earthlink.net>
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:19:14 -0600
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What's The Difference Between #1, #2, #3,
> ... ,#6 Fuel Oil?
>
>> Roger,
>>
>> Excellent desciption of diesels and why/how they work. Far better than I
>> could have done.
>>
>> The most important point in Rogers post concerning winter operations
>> with diesels is when he talks about the cloud point. This is what what
>> most people think of as the point where diesel fuel "gells" I doubt that
>> one could see this in their cars of SUVs. In a truck though, you can
>> easily see into the fuel tanks and when your fuel is cold enough to be
>> at the cloud point, it is readily visible. You will start to see a
>> "waxy" sort of layer floating on to of the fuel and the fuel below will
>> not appear clear anymore, but cloudy. The whole idea is top keep the
>> fuel warmed above this cloud point temperature, or to lower the cloud
>> point temperature by adding chemicals. My experience has been that not
>> all brands of diesel fuel have the same cloud point temperature. Or,
>> perhaps this can even vary from one batch to another at the same
>> station. Also not all cloud point lowering chemical treatments are
>> created equal, some seem to be better than others.
>>
>> When you are dirving in extremely cold weather, it becomes much more
>> difficult to keep your fuel warmed above the cloud point, because the
>> "wind chill" will remove the heat from your fuel tanks, perhaps faster
>> than it is being rewarmed by your engine. Diesel engines have what is
>> called a fuel by-pass. That is, not all of the fuel that is pumped from
>> the tank is injected into the cylinders and burned. Some of it is
>> bypasses the injector pump and is returned to the tank. During this
>> round trip, it is warmed. The secret to the whole thing is to conserve
>> enough of the warmth, or to add even more with an additional fuel
>> heater, to keep the fuel in the tank above the cloud point. If you can
>> do this, your diesel will continue to run, no matter how cold it gets.
>> Fail to do this and you will eventually end up with plugged fuel filters
>> and a cold walk in your future.
>>
>> Mostly from the school of hard knox
>>
>> Rik
>>
>> On 12/10/2003 08:14 am, you wrote:
>> > Hi Everybody,
>> >
>> > The 1st thing you need to know is that crude oil is a very complex
>> mixture
>> > of literally thousands of different organic, inorganic, and organo-
>> metallic
>> > compounds & the specific composition varies greatly between crude oils
>> from
>> > different fields. One of the first processing steps in an oil
>> refinery is
>> > to send the crude oil thru a distillation tower. In the distillation
>> > tower, the components in the crude oil mixture are separated into
>> fractions
>> > by their boiling point ranges. The components with the lowest boiling
>> > points come out the top of the distillation tower as vapor. These
>> would
>> > include compounds like methane, ethane, ethylene, propane, and butane.
>> > These so called "light components" are sent to another distillation
>> tower
>> > which operates at cryogenic temperature for further separation. Going
>> down
>> > the crude oil distillation tower, fractions with greater & greater
>> boiling
>> > point ranges are removed as liquid side streams. From the top of the
>> tower
>> > down, these fractions are: gasoline or naphtha, JP-4, kerosene or #1
>> fuel
>> > oil, #2 fuel oil, #4 fuel oil, #5 light, #5 heavy, & #6 fuel oil. #3
>> fuel
>> > oil is not an official API crude oil fraction designation because it
>> would
>> > have to be removed from the distillation tower very near the feed
>> port. > Removal of this #3 fuel oil side stream in the vicinity of the
>> feed port
>> > would tend to upset the operation of the distillation tower. Believe
>> me,
>> > achieving stable on-spec operation of a distillation tower with 9 or
>> 10
>> > product streams & a variable feed stock is one of the most difficult
>> > process control problems in all of chemical engineering, even without
>> > screwing up the column operation by removing a side stream near the
>> feed
>> > port! Sometimes refineries will cut a deal with a local business &
>> sell
>> > them a product called #3 fuel oil with a boiling point range
>> intermediate
>> > between #2 fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. But, it's always made by blending
>> #2
>> > fuel oil & #4 fuel oil. Remember, all these products are not pure
>> > compounds. They are complex mixtures that meet a boiling point range
>> > specification.
>> >
>> > OK, so what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
>> > light? The fuel injection system in a diesel engine has a number of
>> very
>> > precisely machined, highly polished components that meter & atomize
>> the
>> > fuel. These pieces/parts depend upon the lubricating qualities of the
>> fuel
>> > oil to lubricate & cool them as they operate. A fuel oil that's too
>> light
>> > will not have the oil film strength (basically viscosity) to prevent
>> > metal-to-metal contact in the fuel injection system. The fuel
>> injection
>> > system will self-destruct in short order. In addition, a fuel oil
>> that's
>> > too light will have a boiling point range outside of the design range
>> of
>> > the fuel injection system. Remember, the fuel injection system is
>> located
>> > right next to a hot engine. If the light fuel oil starts vaporizing
>> inside
>> > the injection pump &/or injectors, the system will stop working.
>> There
>> > will be instant catastrophic metal-to-metal contact & the system will
>> seize
>> > up. Finally, smooth operation of the diesel engine depends upon the
>> > atomized droplets of fuel in the combustion chamber behaving in a
>> > predictable manner. Basically, what's supposed to happen is that in
>> the
>> > microseconds immediately following fuel injection, the light
>> components of
>> > the diesel oil mixture start boiling out of each droplet. These light
>> > components mix as a vapor with the air in the combustion chamber,
>> > eventually forming a mixture with a composition within the flammable
>> range.
>> > Somewhere in this vapor space, the flammable mixture lights off due
>> to the
>> > adiabatic heat of compression (remember it's a diesel - no spark
>> plugs). > The flame front rapidly consumes all the fuel present as a
>> vapor & ends up
>> > burning at the surface of the remaining droplets of fuel. These
>> droplets
>> > of fuel progressively boil up their remaining lightest components &
>> the
>> > remaining droplet gets enriched in heavy boiling components. Under
>> heavy
>> > load, there isn't enough time available during the 4-cycle engine's
>> power
>> > stroke to completely combust the heaviest components. These heavy
>> > components get ejected with the exhaust gases & we see them as diesel
>> smoke
>> > & soot. If there are too much light boiling components in the diesel
>> fuel;
>> > then, too much of the droplet vaporizes in-between fuel injection &
>> > ignition. Two things can happen. Ignition can actually occur while
>> the
>> > fuel injectors are still atomizing fuel. The fuel injectors were not
>> > designed to have a high temperature flame impinging on them while they
>> are
>> > in operation atomizing fuel & they can be damaged. The other thing
>> that
>> > can happen is that a relatively large amount of light boiling
>> components
>> > end up in the vapor space prior to ignition. When this big fuel
>> charge
>> > lights off, combustion is too rapid & the
>> > pressure/temperature in the combustion chamber exceeds design limits.
>> This
>> > can cause problems like blown head gaskets, holes in pistons, burnt
>> valve
>> > seats, etc. It's sort of like having the spark timing set incorrectly
>> on a
>> > gasoline engine &/or using a fuel with too low an octane number for
>> the
>> > spark ignited engine's compression ratio. In fact, diesel fuels
>> actually
>> > have a "cetane number", which is the opposite of an "octane number".
>> A
>> > high cetane number means the fuel will preignite very readily. Diesel
>> > fuels have a low octane number and a high cetane number. The optimum
>> > injection timing in a diesel engine strongly depends upon the lag time
>> > between fuel atomization & initial light off & this lag time is mostly
>> > controlled by the boiling point range of the diesel fuel.
>> >
>> > So what happens if you feed a diesel engine a fuel oil that's too
>> heavy?
>> > The viscosity of the fuel oil goes up along with the boiling point
>> range. > A heavy fuel oil may be too viscous for the fuel system to pump
>> from the
>> > fuel tank to fuel injection metering system, especially at low
>> > temperatures. In addition, all fuel oils have a specification called
>> the
>> > "cloud point". Basically that's the temperature at which the fuel oil
>> > becomes visibly cloudy or scatters transmitted light. Physically,
>> what's
>> > happening is that the heaviest boiling components in the fuel oil have
>> > solidified into micron sized particles of a waxy material. Remember
>> all
>> > those very precise, highly polished pieces/parts in the fuel injection
>> > system? The diesel engine's fuel system has a system of very fine
>> mesh
>> > filters & oil/water separators designed to filter out abrasive
>> particles &
>> > water in order to protect those parts. These waxy particles will clog
>> up
>> > the fuel filters in a diesel engine very quickly. Winter diesel fuel
>> > additives increase the solubility of these waxy materials so they stay
>> > dissolved. The higher viscosity fuel oil may not atomize properly in
>> the
>> > fuel injectors, resulting in the atomized droplets being too big in
>> the
>> > combustion chamber. Bigger droplets result in less surface area for
>> the
>> > light boiling components to evaporate from. In addition, the heavy
>> fuel
>> > oil has relatively less of the lighter boiling components in it to
>> begin
>> > with. So, there are less of the low boiling components present to
>> vaporize
>> > off the droplets & those that are there vaporize more slowly because
>> of the
>> > bigger droplets to mix with the air in the combustion chamber to light
>> the
>> > fire. In other words, especially at low temperature, the engine may
>> not
>> > even run on this fuel. That's why diesel engines have glow plugs
>> > (combustion chamber preheaters) for winter operation. Even if the
>> diesel
>> > engine does run on this fuel, a much larger % of the combustion will
>> be of
>> > the slower, less efficient variety wherein burning occurs at the
>> surface of
>> > the droplets. I would expect the engine would be down on power & the
>> > exhaust would be very smoky & sooty.
>> >
>> > So, although diesel engines can theoretically burn a wide range of
>> fuels;
>> > in reality, they are pretty finicky about what they will reliably run
>> on.
>> >
>> > There, that's probably much more than you ever wanted to know re fuel
>> oil
>> > specifications & how diesel engines work. Hopefully, I answered your
>> > question.
>> >
>> > Roger Pihlaja
>> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
>> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:31 AM
>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
>> >
>> > > Dan, Rik and Rummy,
>> > > Dan thank you for the latest on Ford's diesels, and for your
>> > > inputs on diesel fuel and additives.
>> > > Maybe we can get Roger to explain the chemical differences
>> > > during the Christmas holidays, if he gets them.
>> > > As for #3, it was used in big locomotive engines during the
>> > > transition from coal to diesel. It was used to generate steam.
>> > > Ed K
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Meltzer
>> > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:28 PM
>> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
>> > >
>> > > thanks, I will watch it and take it easly on the centen booster, BTW
>> > > mine might be a early one 3/2003(did not know it until I picked
>> > > it up), is their anything I should watch out for or bitch to the
>> dealer
>> > > about?(reflash the chip)
>> > >
>> > > MJM
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Dan Bodnar" <dsbodnar at earthlink.net>
>> > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:23 PM
>> > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
>> > >
>> > > > Michael,
>> > > > I've had several of the old 7.3L Diesels in E350 Vans. The last
>> one I
>> > >
>> > > owned
>> > >
>> > > > was in 2001 and it had glow plugs and a fuel heater and I'm fairly
>> > >
>> > > certain
>> > >
>> > > > that the new 6.0L still has the fuel heater. I'm in the Metro
>> Detroit
>> > >
>> > > area
>> > >
>> > > > and we rarely have nights much colder than -10 degrees. I learned
>> > >
>> > > that I
>> > >
>> > > > did not need to plug it in unless it was going to be colder than
>> 10
>> > >
>> > > below
>> > >
>> > > > 'cause the diesel started fine. I did plug it in when I knew it
>> would
>> > >
>> > > be
>> > >
>> > > > colder than 10 below at night just to be safe. But, having
>> forgotten
>> > >
>> > > to do
>> > >
>> > > > it a few times, taught me that they would start using just the
>> > >
>> > > recommended
>> > >
>> > > > start procedure.
>> > > >
>> > > > Anyway, fresh winter grade fuel, or some Premium diesel (which I
>> think
>> > >
>> > > is
>> > >
>> > > > really #1) and your diesel should do fine. Also make sure that the
>> > >
>> > > water
>> > >
>> > > > separator really does get drained with every oil change. I never
>> had a
>> > > > diesel not start. They were a little smoky sometimes when it was
>> zero
>> > >
>> > > or
>> > >
>> > > > colder, but they always started. I only used a diesel fuel
>> > >
>> > > conditioner on
>> > >
>> > > > one trip into Michigan's Upper Peninsula where I knew I was going
>> to
>> > >
>> > > have
>> > >
>> > > > 20+ below-zero weather. I don't remember the gel point of diesel
>> > >
>> > > either,
>> > >
>> > > > but I'm pretty sure it is lower than 15 below... now that I think
>> > >
>> > > about it,
>> > >
>> > > > if the numbers aren't in the diesel supplement to your owner's
>> manual,
>> > >
>> > > then
>> > >
>> > > > the gel point is printed on the back of some of the bottles of
>> fuel
>> > > > conditioner. Oh, and with the new 6.0L electronically controlled
>> > >
>> > > diesel, if
>> > >
>> > > > you decide to use a fuel conditioner, "more is NOT better".
>> Raising
>> > >
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > > > flash point of the fuel too far will play havoc with proper
>> > >
>> > > combustion.
>> > >
>> > > > We had some initial growing pains with the new 6.0L Diesel, but
>> the
>> > >
>> > > reports
>> > >
>> > > > I'm seeing lately say that the late 2003 and 2004 units are top
>> > >
>> > > drawer.
>> > >
>> > > > Dan Bodnar
>> > > > SV QOL
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> > >
>> > > Meltzer
>> > >
>> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:46 PM
>> > > > To: sanderico at earthlink.net; The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
>> > > >
>> > > > That nice to know, under a little knowage is dangerous I heard
>> that
>> > >
>> > > use
>> > >
>> > > > Kerosene can be use up to 20% in the winter, also almost
>> > > > anything can go into a disel engine, like bio-disel, made from
>> used
>> > >
>> > > frechfry
>> > >
>> > > > oil :-)
>> > > >
>> > > > MJM
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico at earthlink.net>
>> > > > To: <kroposki at innova.net>; "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:54 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
>> > > >
>> > > > > Ed,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > #1 fuel oil and kerosene are not the same thing. Kerosene is
>> more
>> > > >
>> > > > "refined"
>> > > >
>> > > > > than #1 oil. #3 fuel oil is an even heavier oil than #2. I think
>> > >
>> > > they use
>> > >
>> > > > it
>> > > >
>> > > > > for firing funaces (like asphalt plants) and things, industrial
>> > >
>> > > stuff more
>> > >
>> > > > > down south than up around here. It's heavy enough that you have
>> to
>> > >
>> > > warm it
>> > >
>> > > > up
>> > > >
>> > > > > before it will light easily. Not an expert on this though :-)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I did run across a guy from down south a few years ago that
>> claimed
>> > >
>> > > to be
>> > >
>> > > > > using #3 oil in the truck he was driving. It was about -20 F
>> that
>> > >
>> > > night
>> > >
>> > > > and I
>> > > >
>> > > > > stopped to help him as his truck was froze up (fuel gelled) on
>> the
>> > >
>> > > side of
>> > >
>> > > > > I-94. Poor bastard was out in that shit in nothing but a light
>> > >
>> > > jacket and
>> > >
>> > > > a
>> > > >
>> > > > > t-shirt. He was, to say the least, happy to see me. I would
>> imagine
>> > >
>> > > that
>> > >
>> > > > they
>> > > >
>> > > > > had to drain whatever fuel was in that truck and start over with
>> all
>> > >
>> > > new,
>> > >
>> > > > > lighter fuel before that truck would ever go anywhere again
>> before
>> > >
>> > > spring.
>> > >
>> > > > I
>> > > >
>> > > > > think he learned that some of the things you can get away with
>> down
>> > >
>> > > south,
>> > >
>> > > > > won't get you very far up here when it gets cold. Up here, we've
>> got
>> > >
>> > > real
>> > >
>> > > > > honest to God.......COLD!!!!!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Rik
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 12/08/2003 08:16 pm, you wrote:
>> > > > > > KEROSENE! What is # 3 used for? and yes there is a #3. Hey
>> guys
>> > >
>> > > help
>> > >
>> > > > > > Rummy.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Ed
>> K
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: Michael's Diesel #1 and #2
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I've always just known it as #1.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > __________________________________________________
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>> > > > >
>> > > > > __________________________________________________
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>> > > >
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>> > >
>> > >
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