[Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was Confused and Stupid

[Bill Effros]

Steve,

Great News!

Yamaha has just introduced a new 300hp V-6 2-cycle outboard that meets the 2006 federal emissions standard!

You may have to modify your engine mount slightly, but your boat will fly--and you can be confident that you're doing your bit for the environment.

Bill


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve 
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was Confused and Stupid


Roger
Why did Michael get excluded!!!  Besides, I never said
you were wrong; you're generally right.  I just figure
we will all be glowing orange before it an issue:-)
Got to look at the bright side to these issues:-)
Steve


--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> Bill, Rummy, Et Al,
> 
> Look, this discussion is getting old & boring.  I've
> tried to state my case
> logically & I keep getting attacked from all sides
> (MJM excluded).  You guys
> are obviously in denial, so go enjoy your 2-cycle
> outboards.  However, I'll
> make a fearless prediction.  Within 10 years, you
> will realise I was
> essentially correct re this 2-cycle marine engine
> emissions issue.  On that
> day, I hope you will have the moral fiber to
> apologise.  If, on the other
> hand, it turns out that the issue is marine glurge,
> you can be certain I
> will also apologise.
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused and Stupid
> 
> 
> > Roger, (and Michael),
> >
> > Can you find the reports by respected marine
> biologists you refer to?  The
> ones I saw were bought and paid for by the marine
> engine industry. (OMC I
> believe.)  They have been thoroughly discredited.
> >
> > 4-cycle engines simply do not get twice the fuel
> efficiency compared to
> 2-cycle engines as anyone with a 2-cycle can tell
> you.  This statement was
> based on the notion that since the 4-cycle fired
> once every 4 strokes, and
> the 2-cycle fired on every other stroke, the 2 cycle
> must use twice as much
> gas, and dump half of it into the water.
> >
> > The 2 stroke people came back with a "ton-miles"
> statistic--since 4
> strokes of equivalent power weigh more than twice as
> much as 2-strokes,
> pound for pound the 2 stroke engines must be twice
> as efficient.
> >
> > In fact, the 4-cycles are slightly more efficient
> than the 2 strokes for
> the same amount of power.  Most of the difference is
> not "dumped into the
> water" as Michael would have it, but manifests
> itself in heat.  2-cycle
> engines run hotter.
> >
> > Which brings us to Dave, Jay, Michael and Bruce
> who have all had problems
> with their 4-cycle cooling systems.  To bring
> 4-cycles up to operating
> temperatures they must employ complicated
> intermittent cooling systems with
> thermostats.  There is an abundant supply of cool
> water in a marine
> environment to cool the hotter running 2-cycles--no
> thermostats needed.  The
> 2-cycles exhaust most of the extra gas in the form
> of non-polluting hot
> water.  I have never had a problem with my cooling
> system.  My engine is 12
> years old.  I'm moored a couple of hundred yards
> from Bruce.  Same salt
> water.  I try to remember to flush my system at the
> end of each season.
> (Last year I forgot.)
> >
> > The reports you refer to compared detuned 2-cycle
> engines with specially
> tricked up 4-cycles made by the same manufacturer
> who didn't want to retool
> its 2-cycle line.
> >
> > The Japanese make excellent low polluting 2-cycle
> engines, and were
> already making them when these reports were written.
>  My engine calls for a
> 50-1 gas-oil mixture.  I put in more oil at the
> beginning of the season to
> make sure everything is lubricated, and when I first
> start my engines there
> is a puff of smoke, but after that there is no
> visible smoke coming out of
> my engine, and there is no oil slick trailing my
> boat.
> >
> > That is not true of many 4-stroke gas guzzlers
> that cross my path leaving
> rainbows of residue behind them.  The cylinders of 4
> stroke engines must be
> lubricated just as 2 strokes must be lubricated. 
> Cylinder rings are
> supposed to remove the excess, but not all of the
> oil--that's why you check
> your oil.  Where do you think the missing oil goes? 
> No one does a ring job
> until much more oil has been dumped into the water
> than my little 2-stroke
> will ever put there.
> >
> > We have been around this bush too many times.  I
> believe the claims you
> cite are glurge.  What are the original sources?
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused and Stupid
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > The marine industry has been fighting the
> regulation & banning of 2-cycle
> > engines tooth & nail.  The industry has a
> tremendous investment in
> > production capacity for the current generation of
> 2-cycle engines.  The
> > reports I am refering to were published by
> respected marine biologists,
> not
> > the marine industry.  I assure you, the issue is
> good science, not
> "glurge".
> >
> > Also, if you reread what I have written, I did not
> advocate everyone to go
> > out & immediately trade-in their 2-cycle marine
> engines.  As I wrote, I
> > myself switched over to 4-cycle outboards over a 4
> year period & only when
> > it was appropriate to replace an engine.  However,
> 2006 is approaching.
> >
> > Nationwide, 2-cycle powered PWC's & small 2-cycle
> outboard powered boats
> > outnumber all other pleasure craft by wide
> margins.
> >
> > Other than the abuse heaped upon our Honda 9.9 by
> my son, Gary, our
> 4-cycle
> > Honda outboards have been bulletproof reliable for
> nearly 8 & 4 years
> > respectively.  They don't leak oil, we don't use
> any additives in their
> > fuel, they start on the 1st or 2nd pull with no
> rituals, & the % extra
> > engine time involved in running their carbs out of
> fuel in between uses is
> > inconsequential.  Besides, I used to do the same
> thing with the gas in the
> > carb on the 2-cycle Evinrude.  I believe running
> the gas out of the carb
> is
> > just good practice with an outboard that sits
> between uses.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:09 PM
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused and Stupid
> >
> >
> > > Glurge is the sending of inspirational (often
> supposedly "true") tales
> > that conceal much darker meanings than the
> uplifting moral lessons they
> > purport to offer, and that undermine their
> messages by fabricating and
> > distorting historical fact in the guise of
> offering a "true
> > story."" -snopes.com
> > >
> > > Roger--
> > >
> > > The marine engine industry has concocted this
> glurge and you keep
> > repeating it.  They are trying to sell more
> motors, they don't give a damn
> > about marine pollution.  2-cycle engines have not
> been banned.  More
> > stringent regulations have been established.  The
> marine engine industry
> has
> > now developed 2-cycle engines that are cleaner
> than most 4-cycle engines.
> > >
> > > People on this list have constantly complained
> about the reliability of
> > their 4-cycle engines--we read, year after year,
> elaborate rituals
> performed
> > before and after every use by 4-cycle engine
> owners--what's more, the
> > engines exhaust raw fuel into the water every time
> they fail to start;
> > owners dump multiple "additives" directly into
> their fuel; they run their
> > engines twice as long as they need them to drain
> all the fuel after every
> > use; they dump the old oil into the water with
> every oil change; their
> > engines leak oil directly into the water...
> > >
> > > The population density of wretched excess
> conspicuous consumption boats
> is
> > amazingly high wherever there is money.  Here on
> Long Island Sound I see
> 100
> > multi-engine gas guzzlers in operation for every
> PWC.
> > >
> > > I know you are genuinely concerned about the
> environment, and your
> > engineering background concentrated on removing
> pollutants emitted by
> > internal combustion engines.  No one questions
> your competence in the
> > technical aspects of this conversation.  However,
> with regard to the
> larger
> > point of swapping in a reliable 2-cycle engine
> (which will be sold to and
> > used by someone else) for a less reliable, brand
> new 4-cycle engine (which
> > exacted additional environmental costs in its
> manufacture) to be used
> > occasionally on a sailboat, I think you have
> allowed your technical
> > expertise to cloud your common sense judgment.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:53 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused Was
> (Stupid People Tricks)
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve & Rummy,
> > >
> > > Look, I'll be the 1st to agree that double &
> triple engined muscle boats
> > are
> > > one of the most glaring examples of conspicuous
> consumption & wretched
> > > excess in the world today.  But, they mostly run
> with 4-cycle engines &
> > they
> > > run mostly in deep water, far from shore, &
> their population density is
> > > usually pretty low.  Small 2-cycle outboards &
> PWC's tend to be much
> more
> > > numerous, used near shore, in estuaries, small
> bays, rivers, etc.  In
> > other
> > > words, the small 2-cycle marine engines tend to
> be emitting their
> > pollution
> > > into the waters that are the most productive &
> most vulnerable in terms
> of
> > > fish spawning grounds, insect larvae,
> crustaceans, plant life, etc.
> Make
> > no
> > > mistake, there is some BAD SHIT in 2-cycle
> exhaust smoke & the oily film
> > > that these machines lay down on the water;
> materials like dioxins,
> > > tetrahydrofurans (THF's) & other materials that
> are biologically active
> at
> > > parts per billion concentration & also tend to
> bioconcentrate up the
> food
> > > chain.  Gentlemen, this is a really bad deal!
> > >
> > > Hey guys, I'm a sailor, just like you.  I'm also
> a professional chemical
> > > engineer, not some tree hugging
> environmentalist.  I've seen the water
> > > quality & biological sampling data & the
> supporting analysis.  These
> > reports
> > > have convinced me that marine 2-cycle engines
> are a problem.  Certainly
> > the
> > > small, low use, 2-cycle outboards used on our
> R-22's are not the biggest
> > > contributor to the problem; BUT, they are part
> of the problem & not part
> > of
> > > the solution.  It's counterproductive to point
> your finger at
> muscleboats
> > &
> > > say those folks should be banned until your own
> house is in order.  The
> > > environmental threat from 2-cycle marine engine
> exhaust emissions is
> real
> > &
> > > not going away any time soon.  Which side of
> this issue do you want to
> be
> > > on?
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
> > > To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:46 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused Was
> (Stupid People Tricks)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Rummy, I'm with you.  The heavy machinery is a
> much bigger problem.  I
> > > doubt
> > > > I burn more than fifteen gallons a season. 
> It's a goddang blowboat
> for
> > > > chirstsake!  If they ban 2 cycles, I would
> hope that they would put a
> > cap
> > > on
> > > > it--like over 25 or something.
> > > > Slim
> > > > P.S. You're partying with the wrong people.
> > > >
> > > > On 7/17/03 6:54 PM, "John Tonjes"
> <johntonjes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roger,
> > > > > If 2 cycle engines are outlawed, there are
> going to be a lot of
> > unhappy
> > > > > loggers, tree trimmers, grass maintenance
> compamies and homeowners
> who
> > > use
> > > > > them for everything from blowing leaves to
> mowing the lawn.
> > Personally,
> > > I
> > > > > would prefer to see the 1000 hp cigarette
> boats with blowers
> outlawed
> > > long
> > > > > before the 2 cycles are done in. I talked
> with a guy a few weeks ago
> > at
> > > a
> > > > > party with just such a boat. He can go in
> excess of 100mph on the
> > water.
> > > I
> > > > > didn't bother asking about fuel consumption,
> but he did mention he
> > > carried
> > > > > 110 gallons of high test.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rummy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> [Original Message]
> > > > >> From: Roger Pihlaja
> <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> Date: 7/17/2003 5:22:54 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was (Stupid People
> Tricks)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Steve,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Since 2-cycle engines are currently still
> legal to operate on most
> > > bodies
> > > > > of
> > > > >> water in the United States, everyone must
> decide for themselves
> what
> > > they
> > > > >> want to do re this issue.  Certainly, PWC's
> & large 2-cycle
> outboards
> > > > >> generate lots more pollution & waste much
> more fuel than the
> > relatively
> > > > >> small & infrequently used outboards on our
> R-22's.  I realize
> > replacing
> > > an
> > > > >> outboard engine is an expensive
> proposition.  I myself did not
> switch
> > > over
> > > > >> to 4-cycle engines overnight.  The 2-cycle
> Evinrude 6 came
> installed
> > on
> > > > >> Dynamic Equilibrium when the boat was
> purchased in 1987 & we ran
> with
> > > that
> > > > >> engine for 9 years.  I replaced the 2-cycle
> Evinrude 6 on Dynamic
> > > > >> Equilibrium with the 4-cycle Honda 8 in
> 1996.  However, in that
> same
> > > > > year, I
> > > > >> converted the long shaft Evinrude 6 back to
> a standard length shaft
> &
> > > ran
> > > > >> the 2-cycle engine on our 10 foot
> inflatable sport dingy until
> 2000,
> > > when
> > > > > I
> > > > >> purchased the 4-cycle Honda 9.9.  I finally
> sold the 2-cycle
> Evinrude
> > > at a
> > > > >> yard sale in the summer of 2001.  By that
> point, the Evinrude was
> > > getting
> > > > > a
> > > > >> little tired & looked pretty scruffy, but
> it still ran reasonably
> > well.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The nearly 2X greater fuel consumption &
> more than 10X greater
> > exhaust
> > > > >> emissions issues with 2-cycle marine
> engines are real & well
> > > documented.
> > > > >> Their continued use does not represent good
> stewardship of the
> > planet.
> > > > > The
> > > > >> real question everyone must ask themselves
> is, "Do you want to be
> > part
> > > of
> > > > >> the problem or part of the solution?"  Long
> term, I think 2-cycle
> > > marine
> > > > >> engines will either be saddled with so much
> emissions control
> > > technology
> > > > >> that the cost, simplicity, & weight
> advantages over 4-cycle engines
> > > will
> > > > > go
> > > > >> away or the 2-cycle engine will be banned
> altogether.  There is
> > already
> > > a
> > > > >> small but steadily growing list of bodies
> of water wherein it is
> > > illegal
> > > > > to
> > > > >> operate 2-cycle marine engines.  That's
> something to ponder when it
> > > comes
> > > > >> time to replace your current outboard.  If
> you wait until 2-cycle
> > > engines
> > > > >> are outlawed; then, your current outboard
> won't have much resale
> > value.
> > > > >> I've already voted with my checkbook.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > > >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:37 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was (Stupid People
> Tricks)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Well, Roger, I am sure you saw this coming
> but I like
> > > > >>> my little 2 cycle motor.  Pollution &
> all:-)
> > > > >>> Steve
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --- Roger Pihlaja
> <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> > > > >>>> Richard,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I can usually follow your line of
> reasoning; but,
> > > > >>>> this time I'm confused.  The discussion
> was about
> > > > >>>> the relative merits of 2-cycle vs 4-cycle
> marine
> > > > >>>> engines.  What do alcohol burning model
> airplane
> > > > >>>> engines have to do with gasoline burning
> marine
> > > > >>>> engines?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > > > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
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> > > > >>>
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> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
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