[Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was Confused and Stupid

[Steve]

Discrimination, discrimination I say; ARRRRRRRRrrrrrrr
where be me cannon:-)
Steve


--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
> The obvious guys says: an exception was make because
> he is exceptional :-)
> 
> MJM
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> 
> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> Confused and Stupid
> 
> 
> > Roger
> > Why did Michael get excluded!!!  Besides, I never
> said
> > you were wrong; you're generally right.  I just
> figure
> > we will all be glowing orange before it an
> issue:-)
> > Got to look at the bright side to these issues:-)
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> > > Bill, Rummy, Et Al,
> > > 
> > > Look, this discussion is getting old & boring. 
> I've
> > > tried to state my case
> > > logically & I keep getting attacked from all
> sides
> > > (MJM excluded).  You guys
> > > are obviously in denial, so go enjoy your
> 2-cycle
> > > outboards.  However, I'll
> > > make a fearless prediction.  Within 10 years,
> you
> > > will realise I was
> > > essentially correct re this 2-cycle marine
> engine
> > > emissions issue.  On that
> > > day, I hope you will have the moral fiber to
> > > apologise.  If, on the other
> > > hand, it turns out that the issue is marine
> glurge,
> > > you can be certain I
> > > will also apologise.
> > > 
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > > Confused and Stupid
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Roger, (and Michael),
> > > >
> > > > Can you find the reports by respected marine
> > > biologists you refer to?  The
> > > ones I saw were bought and paid for by the
> marine
> > > engine industry. (OMC I
> > > believe.)  They have been thoroughly
> discredited.
> > > >
> > > > 4-cycle engines simply do not get twice the
> fuel
> > > efficiency compared to
> > > 2-cycle engines as anyone with a 2-cycle can
> tell
> > > you.  This statement was
> > > based on the notion that since the 4-cycle fired
> > > once every 4 strokes, and
> > > the 2-cycle fired on every other stroke, the 2
> cycle
> > > must use twice as much
> > > gas, and dump half of it into the water.
> > > >
> > > > The 2 stroke people came back with a
> "ton-miles"
> > > statistic--since 4
> > > strokes of equivalent power weigh more than
> twice as
> > > much as 2-strokes,
> > > pound for pound the 2 stroke engines must be
> twice
> > > as efficient.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, the 4-cycles are slightly more
> efficient
> > > than the 2 strokes for
> > > the same amount of power.  Most of the
> difference is
> > > not "dumped into the
> > > water" as Michael would have it, but manifests
> > > itself in heat.  2-cycle
> > > engines run hotter.
> > > >
> > > > Which brings us to Dave, Jay, Michael and
> Bruce
> > > who have all had problems
> > > with their 4-cycle cooling systems.  To bring
> > > 4-cycles up to operating
> > > temperatures they must employ complicated
> > > intermittent cooling systems with
> > > thermostats.  There is an abundant supply of
> cool
> > > water in a marine
> > > environment to cool the hotter running
> 2-cycles--no
> > > thermostats needed.  The
> > > 2-cycles exhaust most of the extra gas in the
> form
> > > of non-polluting hot
> > > water.  I have never had a problem with my
> cooling
> > > system.  My engine is 12
> > > years old.  I'm moored a couple of hundred yards
> > > from Bruce.  Same salt
> > > water.  I try to remember to flush my system at
> the
> > > end of each season.
> > > (Last year I forgot.)
> > > >
> > > > The reports you refer to compared detuned
> 2-cycle
> > > engines with specially
> > > tricked up 4-cycles made by the same
> manufacturer
> > > who didn't want to retool
> > > its 2-cycle line.
> > > >
> > > > The Japanese make excellent low polluting
> 2-cycle
> > > engines, and were
> > > already making them when these reports were
> written.
> > >  My engine calls for a
> > > 50-1 gas-oil mixture.  I put in more oil at the
> > > beginning of the season to
> > > make sure everything is lubricated, and when I
> first
> > > start my engines there
> > > is a puff of smoke, but after that there is no
> > > visible smoke coming out of
> > > my engine, and there is no oil slick trailing my
> > > boat.
> > > >
> > > > That is not true of many 4-stroke gas guzzlers
> > > that cross my path leaving
> > > rainbows of residue behind them.  The cylinders
> of 4
> > > stroke engines must be
> > > lubricated just as 2 strokes must be lubricated.
> 
> > > Cylinder rings are
> > > supposed to remove the excess, but not all of
> the
> > > oil--that's why you check
> > > your oil.  Where do you think the missing oil
> goes? 
> > > No one does a ring job
> > > until much more oil has been dumped into the
> water
> > > than my little 2-stroke
> > > will ever put there.
> > > >
> > > > We have been around this bush too many times. 
> I
> > > believe the claims you
> > > cite are glurge.  What are the original sources?
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:50 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > > Confused and Stupid
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > The marine industry has been fighting the
> > > regulation & banning of 2-cycle
> > > > engines tooth & nail.  The industry has a
> > > tremendous investment in
> > > > production capacity for the current generation
> of
> > > 2-cycle engines.  The
> > > > reports I am refering to were published by
> > > respected marine biologists,
> > > not
> > > > the marine industry.  I assure you, the issue
> is
> > > good science, not
> > > "glurge".
> > > >
> > > > Also, if you reread what I have written, I did
> not
> > > advocate everyone to go
> > > > out & immediately trade-in their 2-cycle
> marine
> > > engines.  As I wrote, I
> > > > myself switched over to 4-cycle outboards over
> a 4
> > > year period & only when
> > > > it was appropriate to replace an engine. 
> However,
> > > 2006 is approaching.
> > > >
> > > > Nationwide, 2-cycle powered PWC's & small
> 2-cycle
> > > outboard powered boats
> > > > outnumber all other pleasure craft by wide
> > > margins.
> > > >
> > > > Other than the abuse heaped upon our Honda 9.9
> by
> > > my son, Gary, our
> > > 4-cycle
> > > > Honda outboards have been bulletproof reliable
> for
> > > nearly 8 & 4 years
> > > > respectively.  They don't leak oil, we don't
> use
> > > any additives in their
> > > > fuel, they start on the 1st or 2nd pull with
> no
> > > rituals, & the % extra
> > > > engine time involved in running their carbs
> out of
> > > fuel in between uses is
> > > > inconsequential.  Besides, I used to do the
> same
> > > thing with the gas in the
> > > > carb on the 2-cycle Evinrude.  I believe
> running
> > > the gas out of the carb
> > > is
> > > > just good practice with an outboard that sits
> > > between uses.
> > > >
> > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:09 PM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Marine Glurge Was
> > > Confused and Stupid
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Glurge is the sending of inspirational
> (often
> > > supposedly "true") tales
> > > > that conceal much darker meanings than the
> > > uplifting moral lessons they
> > > > purport to offer, and that undermine their
> > > messages by fabricating and
> > > > distorting historical fact in the guise of
> > > offering a "true
> > > > story."" -snopes.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger--
> > > > >
> > > > > The marine engine industry has concocted
> this
> > > glurge and you keep
> > > > repeating it.  They are trying to sell more
> > > motors, they don't give a damn
> > > > about marine pollution.  2-cycle engines have
> not
> > > been banned.  More
> > > > stringent regulations have been established. 
> The
> > > marine engine industry
> > > has
> > > > now developed 2-cycle engines that are cleaner
> > > than most 4-cycle engines.
> > > > >
> > > > > People on this list have constantly
> complained
> > > about the reliability of
> > > > their 4-cycle engines--we read, year after
> year,
> > > elaborate rituals
> > > performed
> > > > before and after every use by 4-cycle engine
> > > owners--what's more, the
> > > > engines exhaust raw fuel into the water every
> time
> > > they fail to start;
> > > > owners dump multiple "additives" directly into
> > > their fuel; they run their
> > > > engines twice as long as they need them to
> drain
> > > all the fuel after every
> > > > use; they dump the old oil into the water with
> > > every oil change; their
> > > > engines leak oil directly into the water...
> > > > >
> > > > > The population density of wretched excess
> > > conspicuous consumption boats
> > > is
> > > > amazingly high wherever there is money.  Here
> on
> > > Long Island Sound I see
> > > 100
> > > > multi-engine gas guzzlers in operation for
> every
> > > PWC.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know you are genuinely concerned about the
> > > environment, and your
> > > > engineering background concentrated on
> removing
> > > pollutants emitted by
> > > > internal combustion engines.  No one questions
> > > your competence in the
> > > > technical aspects of this conversation. 
> However,
> > > with regard to the
> > > larger
> > > > point of swapping in a reliable 2-cycle engine
> > > (which will be sold to and
> > > > used by someone else) for a less reliable,
> brand
> > > new 4-cycle engine (which
> > > > exacted additional environmental costs in its
> > > manufacture) to be used
> > > > occasionally on a sailboat, I think you have
> > > allowed your technical
> > > > expertise to cloud your common sense judgment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:53 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve & Rummy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, I'll be the 1st to agree that double &
> > > triple engined muscle boats
> > > > are
> > > > > one of the most glaring examples of
> conspicuous
> > > consumption & wretched
> > > > > excess in the world today.  But, they mostly
> run
> > > with 4-cycle engines &
> > > > they
> > > > > run mostly in deep water, far from shore, &
> > > their population density is
> > > > > usually pretty low.  Small 2-cycle outboards
> &
> > > PWC's tend to be much
> > > more
> > > > > numerous, used near shore, in estuaries,
> small
> > > bays, rivers, etc.  In
> > > > other
> > > > > words, the small 2-cycle marine engines tend
> to
> > > be emitting their
> > > > pollution
> > > > > into the waters that are the most productive
> &
> > > most vulnerable in terms
> > > of
> > > > > fish spawning grounds, insect larvae,
> > > crustaceans, plant life, etc.
> > > Make
> > > > no
> > > > > mistake, there is some BAD SHIT in 2-cycle
> > > exhaust smoke & the oily film
> > > > > that these machines lay down on the water;
> > > materials like dioxins,
> > > > > tetrahydrofurans (THF's) & other materials
> that
> > > are biologically active
> > > at
> > > > > parts per billion concentration & also tend
> to
> > > bioconcentrate up the
> > > food
> > > > > chain.  Gentlemen, this is a really bad
> deal!
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey guys, I'm a sailor, just like you.  I'm
> also
> > > a professional chemical
> > > > > engineer, not some tree hugging
> > > environmentalist.  I've seen the water
> > > > > quality & biological sampling data & the
> > > supporting analysis.  These
> > > > reports
> > > > > have convinced me that marine 2-cycle
> engines
> > > are a problem.  Certainly
> > > > the
> > > > > small, low use, 2-cycle outboards used on
> our
> > > R-22's are not the biggest
> > > > > contributor to the problem; BUT, they are
> part
> > > of the problem & not part
> > > > of
> > > > > the solution.  It's counterproductive to
> point
> > > your finger at
> > > muscleboats
> > > > &
> > > > > say those folks should be banned until your
> own
> > > house is in order.  The
> > > > > environmental threat from 2-cycle marine
> engine
> > > exhaust emissions is
> > > real
> > > > &
> > > > > not going away any time soon.  Which side of
> > > this issue do you want to
> > > be
> > > > > on?
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Steve Alm" <salm at mn.rr.com>
> > > > > To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:46 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm Confused
> Was
> > > (Stupid People Tricks)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rummy, I'm with you.  The heavy machinery
> is a
> > > much bigger problem.  I
> > > > > doubt
> > > > > > I burn more than fifteen gallons a season.
> 
> > > It's a goddang blowboat
> > > for
> > > > > > chirstsake!  If they ban 2 cycles, I would
> > > hope that they would put a
> > > > cap
> > > > > on
> > > > > > it--like over 25 or something.
> > > > > > Slim
> > > > > > P.S. You're partying with the wrong
> people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7/17/03 6:54 PM, "John Tonjes"
> > > <johntonjes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger,
> > > > > > > If 2 cycle engines are outlawed, there
> are
> > > going to be a lot of
> > > > unhappy
> > > > > > > loggers, tree trimmers, grass
> maintenance
> > > compamies and homeowners
> > > who
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > them for everything from blowing leaves
> to
> > > mowing the lawn.
> > > > Personally,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > would prefer to see the 1000 hp
> cigarette
> > > boats with blowers
> > > outlawed
> > > > > long
> > > > > > > before the 2 cycles are done in. I
> talked
> > > with a guy a few weeks ago
> > > > at
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > party with just such a boat. He can go
> in
> > > excess of 100mph on the
> > > > water.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > didn't bother asking about fuel
> consumption,
> > > but he did mention he
> > > > > carried
> > > > > > > 110 gallons of high test.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rummy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> [Original Message]
> > > > > > >> From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> > > > > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >> Date: 7/17/2003 5:22:54 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm
> Confused
> > > Was (Stupid People
> > > Tricks)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Steve,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Since 2-cycle engines are currently
> still
> > > legal to operate on most
> > > > > bodies
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> water in the United States, everyone
> must
> > > decide for themselves
> > > what
> > > > > they
> > > > > > >> want to do re this issue.  Certainly,
> PWC's
> > > & large 2-cycle
> > > outboards
> > > > > > >> generate lots more pollution & waste
> much
> > > more fuel than the
> > > > relatively
> > > > > > >> small & infrequently used outboards on
> our
> > > R-22's.  I realize
> > > > replacing
> > > > > an
> > > > > > >> outboard engine is an expensive
> > > proposition.  I myself did not
> > > switch
> > > > > over
> > > > > > >> to 4-cycle engines overnight.  The
> 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude 6 came
> > > installed
> > > > on
> > > > > > >> Dynamic Equilibrium when the boat was
> > > purchased in 1987 & we ran
> > > with
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >> engine for 9 years.  I replaced the
> 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude 6 on Dynamic
> > > > > > >> Equilibrium with the 4-cycle Honda 8 in
> > > 1996.  However, in that
> > > same
> > > > > > > year, I
> > > > > > >> converted the long shaft Evinrude 6
> back to
> > > a standard length shaft
> > > &
> > > > > ran
> > > > > > >> the 2-cycle engine on our 10 foot
> > > inflatable sport dingy until
> > > 2000,
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > >> purchased the 4-cycle Honda 9.9.  I
> finally
> > > sold the 2-cycle
> > > Evinrude
> > > > > at a
> > > > > > >> yard sale in the summer of 2001.  By
> that
> > > point, the Evinrude was
> > > > > getting
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> little tired & looked pretty scruffy,
> but
> > > it still ran reasonably
> > > > well.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The nearly 2X greater fuel consumption
> &
> > > more than 10X greater
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > >> emissions issues with 2-cycle marine
> > > engines are real & well
> > > > > documented.
> > > > > > >> Their continued use does not represent
> good
> > > stewardship of the
> > > > planet.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> real question everyone must ask
> themselves
> > > is, "Do you want to be
> > > > part
> > > > > of
> > > > > > >> the problem or part of the solution?" 
> Long
> > > term, I think 2-cycle
> > > > > marine
> > > > > > >> engines will either be saddled with so
> much
> > > emissions control
> > > > > technology
> > > > > > >> that the cost, simplicity, & weight
> > > advantages over 4-cycle engines
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > go
> > > > > > >> away or the 2-cycle engine will be
> banned
> > > altogether.  There is
> > > > already
> > > > > a
> > > > > > >> small but steadily growing list of
> bodies
> > > of water wherein it is
> > > > > illegal
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> operate 2-cycle marine engines.  That's
> > > something to ponder when it
> > > > > comes
> > > > > > >> time to replace your current outboard. 
> If
> > > you wait until 2-cycle
> > > > > engines
> > > > > > >> are outlawed; then, your current
> outboard
> > > won't have much resale
> > > > value.
> > > > > > >> I've already voted with my checkbook.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:37 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] I'm
> Confused
> > > Was (Stupid People
> > > Tricks)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> Well, Roger, I am sure you saw this
> coming
> > > but I like
> > > > > > >>> my little 2 cycle motor.  Pollution &
> > > all:-)
> > > > > > >>> Steve
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> --- Roger Pihlaja
> > > <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> Richard,
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> I can usually follow your line of
> > > reasoning; but,
> > > > > > >>>> this time I'm confused.  The
> discussion
> > > was about
> > > > > > >>>> the relative merits of 2-cycle vs
> 4-cycle
> > > marine
> > > > > > >>>> engines.  What do alcohol burning
> model
> > > airplane
> > > > > > >>>> engines have to do with gasoline
> burning
> > > marine
> > > > > > >>>> engines?
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > >>>>
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > 
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
www.rhodes22.org/list


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com