[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke

Thu Feb 12 06:54:52 EST 2004

Yeah, Ed. That all true.  I also read that some of
these new 2 cycle meet all the EPA standards.  I
forget which models.  The article I read was a while
back.  Anyway, nothing wrong with getting a 2 stokers.
Steve

--- Kroposki <kroposki at innova.net> wrote:
> Steve,
> 	The issue is that new 2 cycle engines are not smoke
> pots.  They
> more than comply with the current environmental
> standards and they will
> comply with the new impending standards.  
> 	As for using oil, all gas motors use oil and some
> of that
> lubricating oil is combusted.  The issue is how much
> of that oil and gas
> is wasted directly into the environment.  The old 2
> cycle engines did
> not care.  However, the EPA standards got the
> manufacturers attention
> and the new engines do not statistically pollute the
> environment more
> than 4 cycle engines which also spew pollutants. 
> All gas engines
> pollute.  It is a matter of degree.  When that
> degree is evaluated
> statistically is the difference significant?  Simply
> put, will the
> impact difference between the two types of motors on
> the environment
> really matter?  A few years ago the answer was yes,
> however, with design
> changes the effects are no longer statistically
> significant.  They both
> pollute. 
> 
>                                       Ed K
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> 
> I thought the reason they came out with 4 strocks
> were
> to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know, you
> have
> a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a non-smoking
> part.  You can now have a smoking part of a lake; &
> a
> non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks that go 4
> stoke; that means the more folks that can go 2
> stoke. 
> And the enviroment only get poluted the same amount
> that we have always done for years:-)Beside, we need
> a
> little more Globle warming.  Temps here are in the
> 40s.  That evendent that we need to polute quite a
> bit
> more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so are winter
> stay
> above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking, Michael:-)
> Steve
> 
> 
> --- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
> > Well lets try a differ tack for the sessions
> version
> > of the question, "So how much harm are you willing
> > to cause, like: frogs
> > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman miscarry,
> children
> > born with birth defects, men going impememnt,
> etc..
> > so you can selflessy use
> > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife to day
> :-)
> > 
> > MJM
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12 AM
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> > 
> > 
> > > Rummy,
> > > Here we go again.  I know better than question
> the
> > technical
> > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's eloquent
> > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.  Roger forgets
> > that not everybody has
> > > two robust sons to help.  It is the old problem
> of
> > being able to see a
> > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > Ed K
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52 AM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> Pump
> > Replacement
> > >
> > > Jay,
> > >
> > > The usual problem with the water pump impellors
> on
> > small outboards is
> > > that
> > > they are made from some sort of rubber.  It's
> > really a rather clever
> > > design.
> > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber vanes on
> > the impellor touch the
> > > water
> > > pump housing, thus making the pump positive
> > displacement & self-priming.
> > > At
> > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect out of the
> > way & ride on top of a
> > > boundary layer of water on the wetted surface of
> > the water pump housing.
> > > At
> > > high speed, the vanes don't experience any wear
> > because they are not
> > > touching the pump housing.  This design makes
> the
> > water pump capable of
> > > automatically switching from positive
> displacement
> > mode to centrifugal
> > > mode
> > > for delivering the high volume of cooling water
> > required by high speed
> > > operation.
> > >
> > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if the water pump
> ever
> > runs dry, the rubber
> > > impellor will lose the lubrication & cooling
> > provided by the water,
> > > overheat, & destroy itself very quickly, like in
> a
> > few seconds!
> > > Exposure to
> > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the oil film
> > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > outboards) will gradually break down the rubber
> > polymer molecules in the
> > > impellor; leading to embrittlement, cracking,
> and
> > failure.  This is
> > > probably
> > > the single biggest long-term failure mechanism. 
> > Pump impellors should
> > > be
> > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to this
> cause
> > alone.  There is also
> > > another common failure mechanism related to
> > storage.  When the lower leg
> > > is
> > > lifted free of the water, the entire cooling
> > system drains down.  This
> > > is
> > > why the water pump needs to be self-priming at
> > start-up.  Even fresh
> > > water &
> > > especially ocean water, has a certain amount of
> > dissolved mineral salts
> > > in
> > > it.  When the cooling system drains down, a
> small
> > amount of water is
> > > left
> > > trapped in between the ends of the vanes on the
> > water pump impellor &
> > > the
> > > aluminum pump housing.  When this water
> eventually
> > evaporates in
> > > storage,
> > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by salt
> crystals
> > to the pump housing.
> > > Depending upon how strong this bond is, the
> rubber
> > impellor can be
> > > damaged
> > > the next time the engine is started when the
> vanes
> > are ripped free of
> > > the
> > > salt crystals.  In addition, for the 1st few
> > minutes of operation,
> > > before
> > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
> relatively
> > rough surface on the
> > > water pump housing that the rubber vanes have to
> > run over on every
> > > revolution.  Finally, there can be corrosion
> > issues with moist salt
> > > crystals
> > > in long-term contact with the aluminum pump
> > housing in this scenario.
> > > In
> > > salt water, it's considered good practice to
> fresh
> > water flush the
> > > cooling
> > > system after every use & certainly before
> > long-term storage.  After
> > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to fresh
> water
> > flush the cooling
> > > system
> > > prior to start-up.  As part of my outboard
> > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > flush
> > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV "red
> pop")
> > thru the cooling
> > > systems
> > > of my outboards.  propylene glycol will prevent
> > the build-up of salt
> > > crystals in-between the vanes and the water pump
> > housing.  During the
> > > boating season, on every start-up, I gently pull
> > the outboard thru with
> > > the
> > > pull cord prior to starting it to break the
> water
> > pump impellor free &
> > > give
> > > the engine several minutes of low speed warm-up.
> > >
> > > The result, the only water pump I've ever had
> fail
> > on any of my
> > > outboards in
> > > 25+ years of boating was the time when my
> younger
> > son Gary ran the
> > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp outboard up on
> the
> > beach with the engine
> > > at
> > > full throttle.  The water pump impellor was
> burnt
> > to a crisp!
> > >
> > > Good luck!
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> Pump
> > Replacement
> > >
> > >
> > > > sounds like overkill and make work, maybe the
> > impeller very 4 years,
> > > but
> > > the complete pump, nah. you are only putting
> 25-50
> > hours on
> > > > the motor every year, one thing you do have to
> > watch is salt on the
> > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean the pee
> tub
> > yearly), is
> > > > one of the few parts on the engine that is not
> > rust proof, time will
> > > get
> > > it and they need to be replace every two years,
> > luckily it
> > > > is also a simple job that you can do yourself.
> > > >
> > > > MJM
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jay Friedland" <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:25 AM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water Pump
> > Replacement
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Folks,
> > > > > My ob service guy says Yam recommends
> > replacing the water pump
> > > assembly
> > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with this the
> > first year in service.
> > > I'm
> > > > > in salt water 9-10 months, occasionally
> flush
> > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > month), and end of season run it in a barrel
> > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits, etc.).
> > > > >
> > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on proceeding
> > with this replacement
> > > or
> > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > >   Thanks, Jay
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > 
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