[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Steve
rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 13 07:40:07 EST 2004
Jim
It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how
can you say they will become a thing of the past? I
don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has brought
one. Their heavy and most folks can work on them
themselfs. When you are out on the water & your motor
goes out; being able to work on it yourself is more
important than polluting the air and/or water.
Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are
not the big factor that pollute water. That like
saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
people. Everyone know that being FAT is the #1 health
problem. 2 stroke will not be done away with except
on small bodies of water (that if the facts were known
are poluted by things other that oil) & Calaforia
(where all the crazy enviromentists live). The
reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that they
get all the repair business. Why fall into that game.
If you want to throw away your money; give it to me;
I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
Steve
--- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
>
> The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no only
> in sailors circles,
> but motorboat circles and generates spirited and
> lively debate- it's
> akin to arguing religion or politics. As a former
> mechanic turned
> biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with
> outboards, and repair
> shops at our facility each day. We probably log
> more water time than
> the average individual (I would guess). Here are
> some of the things
> that I have become aware of over the past several
> years:
> 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a
> thing of the past.
> Pressure at the federal level to reduce emissions
> in the water, as
> well as the air will cause the death of the
> 2-stroke. Common sense
> then tells us that it will become increasingly
> difficult to obtain
> parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes
> all engines pollute,
> and modern two strokes pollute much less than
> older ones. There are
> real fears out there like folks who mix their oil
> in the field (i.e.
> in the parking lot or out on the water, and spill
> directly, or older 2
> strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
> addition of the oil,
> running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> pots").....these are all well
> founded fears that the regulators & and
> environmentalists (especially)
> justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> 2. Four stroke engines are inherently heavier
> than two strokes to a
> certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or
> so), at which time the
> weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great
> deal of difference to
> the small engine/small boat owner, especially
> ones like
> us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the
> weight of those smaller
> engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation have
> a higher low end
> torque which can be useful if you're powering a
> boat that needs to
> "get out of the hole" quickly....usually doesn't
> apply to sailcraft.
> However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing that
> gap also.
> 4. According to our shops, four stroke engines
> have fewer problems,
> and see far less down time and many of our former
> two stroke engine
> fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> especially sailboat owners are
> now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a
> major selling point.
> However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a
> more costly repair
> than a comparable two stroke, but again, with
> design changes in both
> engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> In any event, our facility has now plunged into
> the 4 stroke world
> along with the tide of others. BTW I have a 2002
> 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for my
> newly acquired
> Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> diatribe/dissertation...
> JDWHITE
> At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>
> Wally
> I can't remember where I read the article about
> 2
> strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> probably. But I would think you are right. If
> the
> smaller motors don't already; its just a matter
> of
> time.
> Steve
> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes
> were only
> > coming out in the
> > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think
> that the
> > technolgy will trickly
> > down to the smaller motors as well but you
> never
> > know.....
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes 22
> mail
> > list
> > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle
> > smoke
> > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > >
> > >Steve,
> > > The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
> are not
> > smoke pots. They
> > >more than comply with the current
> environmental
> > standards and they will
> > >comply with the new impending standards.
> > > As for using oil, all gas motors use
> oil and some
> > of that
> > >lubricating oil is combusted. The issue is
> how
> > much of that oil and gas
> > >is wasted directly into the environment.
> The old 2
> > cycle engines did
> > >not care. However, the EPA standards got
> the
> > manufacturers attention
> > >and the new engines do not statistically
> pollute
> > the environment more
> > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> pollutants.
> > All gas engines
> > >pollute. It is a matter of degree. When
> that
> > degree is evaluated
> > >statistically is the difference significant?
> > Simply put, will the
> > >impact difference between the two types of
> motors
> > on the environment
> > >really matter? A few years ago the answer
> was yes,
> > however, with design
> > >changes the effects are no longer
> statistically
> > significant. They both
> > >pollute.
> > >
> > > Ed K
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >
> >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle
> > >
> > >I thought the reason they came out with 4
> strocks
> > were
> > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know,
> you
> > have
> > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> non-smoking
> > >part. You can now have a smoking part of a
> lake; &
> > a
> > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks
> that go
> > 4
> > >stoke; that means the more folks that can go
> 2
> > stoke.
> > >And the enviroment only get poluted the same
> amount
> > >that we have always done for years:-)Beside,
> we
> > need a
> > >little more Globle warming. Temps here are
> in the
> > >40s. That evendent that we need to polute
> quite a
> > bit
> > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so are
> winter
> > stay
> > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> > Michael:-)
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> wrote:
> > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
> sessions
> > version
> > > > of the question, "So how much harm are
> you
> > willing
> > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> miscarry,
> > children
> > > > born with birth defects, men going
> impememnt,
> > etc..
> > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife
> to day
> > :-)
> > > >
> > > > MJM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12
> AM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > Here we go again. I know better than
> question
> > the
> > > > technical
> > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> eloquent
> > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
> Roger
> > forgets
> > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > two robust sons to help. It is the old
> > problem of
> > > > being able to see a
> > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > Ed K
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > >
> [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52
> AM
> > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> Water
> > Pump
> > > > Replacement
> > > > >
> > > > > Jay,
> > > > >
> > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> > impellors on
> > > > small outboards is
> > > > > that
> > > > > they are made from some sort of rubber.
> It's
> > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > design.
> > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber
> vanes
> > on
> > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > water
> > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
> positive
> > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > At
> > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
> out of
> > the
> > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
> surface
> > of
> > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > At
> > > > > high speed, the vanes don't experience
> any
> > wear
> > > > because they are not
> > > > > touching the pump housing. This design
> makes
> > the
> > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > automatically switching from positive
> > displacement
> > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > mode
> > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> cooling
> > water
> > > > required by high speed
> > > > > operation.
> > > > >
> > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if the water
> pump
> > ever
> > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
> cooling
> > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> quickly, like
> > in a
> > > > few seconds!
> > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
> oil film
> > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
> the
> > rubber
> > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
> cracking,
> > and
> > > > failure. This is
> > > > > probably
> > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> > mechanism.
> > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > be
> > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to
> this
> > cause
> > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > another common failure mechanism
> related to
> > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > is
> > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
> cooling
> > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > is
> > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> self-priming at
> > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > water &
> > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
> amount
> > of
> > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > in
> > > > > it. When the cooling system drains
> down, a
> > small
> > > > amount of water is
> > > > > left
> > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
> vanes on
> > the
> > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > the
> > > > > aluminum pump housing. When this water
> > eventually
> > > > evaporates in
> > > > > storage,
> > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
> salt
> > crystals
> > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond is,
> the
> > rubber
> > > > impellor can be
> > > > > damaged
> > > > > the next time the engine is started
> when the
> > vanes
> > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > the
> > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for the
> 1st few
> > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > before
> > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
> > relatively
> > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
> vanes have
> > to
> > > > run over on every
> > > > > revolution. Finally, there can be
> corrosion
> > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > crystals
> > > > > in long-term contact with the aluminum
> pump
> > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > In
> > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> practice to
> > fresh
> > > > water flush the
> > > > > cooling
> > > > > system after every use & certainly
> before
> > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to
> fresh
> > water
> > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > system
> > > > > prior to start-up. As part of my
> outboard
> > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > flush
> > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV
> "red
> > pop")
> > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > systems
> > > > > of my outboards. propylene glycol will
> > prevent
> > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
> water
> > pump
> > > > housing. During the
> > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
> gently
> > pull
> > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > the
> > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to break
> the
> > water
> > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > give
> > > > > the engine several minutes of low speed
> > warm-up.
> > > > >
> > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
> ever had
> > fail
> > > > on any of my
> > > > > outboards in
> > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time when
> my
> > younger
> > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> outboard up on
> > the
> > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > at
> > > > > full throttle. The water pump impellor
> was
> > burnt
> > > > to a crisp!
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck!
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25
> AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> Water
> > Pump
> > > > Replacement
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
> maybe
> > the
> > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > but
> > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
> putting
> > 25-50
> > > > hours on
> > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
> do have
> > to
> > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean
> the pee
> > tub
> > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
> that is
> > not
> > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > get
> > > > > it and they need to be replace every
> two
> > years,
> > > > luckily it
> > > > > > is also a simple job that you can do
> > yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MJM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
> 11:25 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> Water
> > Pump
> > > > Replacement
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> recommends
> > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with
> this
> > the
> > > > first year in service.
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> occasionally
> > flush
> > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > month), and end of season run it in
> a
> > barrel
> > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
> etc.).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> > proceeding
> > > > with this replacement
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> __________________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
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> >
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