[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Jim White
jdwhite at panam.edu
Fri Feb 13 14:07:31 EST 2004
Thanks...
Feel like I'm makin' a new set of friends here....
jwhite
At 01:49 PM 02/13/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>Jim,
>
>Thanks for the information, and for the perspective that you add to the
>debate. And congratulations on the new Rhodes.
>
>If I remember correctly, you're on the Texas Gulf Coast, right? It seems
>like your new boat will be a really good one for sliding over sandbars and
>through the shallows in that direction. I'm in Baton Rouge and sail in Lake
>Ponchatrain, LA. Let me know if you're ever this way and want to drink a
>rum and go sailing.
>
>Ben
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim White [mailto:jdwhite at panam.edu]
>Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 09:01
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
>
>
> The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no only in sailors circles,
> but motorboat circles and generates spirited and lively debate- it's
> akin to arguing religion or politics. As a former mechanic turned
> biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with outboards, and repair
> shops at our facility each day. We probably log more water time than
> the average individual (I would guess). Here are some of the things
> that I have become aware of over the past several years:
> 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a thing of the past.
> Pressure at the federal level to reduce emissions in the water, as
> well as the air will cause the death of the 2-stroke. Common sense
> then tells us that it will become increasingly difficult to obtain
> parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes all engines pollute,
> and modern two strokes pollute much less than older ones. There are
> real fears out there like folks who mix their oil in the field (i.e.
> in the parking lot or out on the water, and spill directly, or older 2
> strokes that mix into the gas tank by human addition of the oil,
> running around rich and smokey ("smoke pots").....these are all well
> founded fears that the regulators & and environmentalists (especially)
> justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> 2. Four stroke engines are inherently heavier than two strokes to a
> certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or so), at which time the
> weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great deal of difference to
> the small engine/small boat owner, especially ones like
> us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the weight of those smaller
> engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation have a higher low end
> torque which can be useful if you're powering a boat that needs to
> "get out of the hole" quickly....usually doesn't apply to sailcraft.
> However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing that gap also.
> 4. According to our shops, four stroke engines have fewer problems,
> and see far less down time and many of our former two stroke engine
> fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and especially sailboat owners are
> now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a major selling point.
> However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a more costly repair
> than a comparable two stroke, but again, with design changes in both
> engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> In any event, our facility has now plunged into the 4 stroke world
> along with the tide of others. BTW I have a 2002 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for my newly acquired
> Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy diatribe/dissertation...
> JDWHITE
> At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>
> Wally
> I can't remember where I read the article about 2
> strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> probably. But I would think you are right. If the
> smaller motors don't already; its just a matter of
> time.
> Steve
> --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes were only
> > coming out in the
> > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think that the
> > technolgy will trickly
> > down to the smaller motors as well but you never
> > know.....
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes 22 mail
> > list
> > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> > smoke
> > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > >
> > >Steve,
> > > The issue is that new 2 cycle engines are not
> > smoke pots. They
> > >more than comply with the current environmental
> > standards and they will
> > >comply with the new impending standards.
> > > As for using oil, all gas motors use oil and some
> > of that
> > >lubricating oil is combusted. The issue is how
> > much of that oil and gas
> > >is wasted directly into the environment. The old 2
> > cycle engines did
> > >not care. However, the EPA standards got the
> > manufacturers attention
> > >and the new engines do not statistically pollute
> > the environment more
> > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew pollutants.
> > All gas engines
> > >pollute. It is a matter of degree. When that
> > degree is evaluated
> > >statistically is the difference significant?
> > Simply put, will the
> > >impact difference between the two types of motors
> > on the environment
> > >really matter? A few years ago the answer was yes,
> > however, with design
> > >changes the effects are no longer statistically
> > significant. They both
> > >pollute.
> > >
> > > Ed K
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> > >
> > >I thought the reason they came out with 4 strocks
> > were
> > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know, you
> > have
> > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a non-smoking
> > >part. You can now have a smoking part of a lake; &
> > a
> > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks that go
> > 4
> > >stoke; that means the more folks that can go 2
> > stoke.
> > >And the enviroment only get poluted the same amount
> > >that we have always done for years:-)Beside, we
> > need a
> > >little more Globle warming. Temps here are in the
> > >40s. That evendent that we need to polute quite a
> > bit
> > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so are winter
> > stay
> > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> > Michael:-)
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
> > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the sessions
> > version
> > > > of the question, "So how much harm are you
> > willing
> > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman miscarry,
> > children
> > > > born with birth defects, men going impememnt,
> > etc..
> > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife to day
> > :-)
> > > >
> > > > MJM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12 AM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > Here we go again. I know better than question
> > the
> > > > technical
> > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's eloquent
> > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself. Roger
> > forgets
> > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > two robust sons to help. It is the old
> > problem of
> > > > being able to see a
> > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > Ed K
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52 AM
> > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> > Pump
> > > > Replacement
> > > > >
> > > > > Jay,
> > > > >
> > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> > impellors on
> > > > small outboards is
> > > > > that
> > > > > they are made from some sort of rubber. It's
> > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > design.
> > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber vanes
> > on
> > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > water
> > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump positive
> > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > At
> > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect out of
> > the
> > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted surface
> > of
> > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > At
> > > > > high speed, the vanes don't experience any
> > wear
> > > > because they are not
> > > > > touching the pump housing. This design makes
> > the
> > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > automatically switching from positive
> > displacement
> > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > mode
> > > > > for delivering the high volume of cooling
> > water
> > > > required by high speed
> > > > > operation.
> > > > >
> > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if the water pump
> > ever
> > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication & cooling
> > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very quickly, like
> > in a
> > > > few seconds!
> > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the oil film
> > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > outboards) will gradually break down the
> > rubber
> > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement, cracking,
> > and
> > > > failure. This is
> > > > > probably
> > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> > mechanism.
> > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > be
> > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to this
> > cause
> > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > another common failure mechanism related to
> > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > is
> > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire cooling
> > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > is
> > > > > why the water pump needs to be self-priming at
> > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > water &
> > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain amount
> > of
> > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > in
> > > > > it. When the cooling system drains down, a
> > small
> > > > amount of water is
> > > > > left
> > > > > trapped in between the ends of the vanes on
> > the
> > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > the
> > > > > aluminum pump housing. When this water
> > eventually
> > > > evaporates in
> > > > > storage,
> > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by salt
> > crystals
> > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond is, the
> > rubber
> > > > impellor can be
> > > > > damaged
> > > > > the next time the engine is started when the
> > vanes
> > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > the
> > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for the 1st few
> > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > before
> > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
> > relatively
> > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > water pump housing that the rubber vanes have
> > to
> > > > run over on every
> > > > > revolution. Finally, there can be corrosion
> > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > crystals
> > > > > in long-term contact with the aluminum pump
> > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > In
> > > > > salt water, it's considered good practice to
> > fresh
> > > > water flush the
> > > > > cooling
> > > > > system after every use & certainly before
> > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to fresh
> > water
> > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > system
> > > > > prior to start-up. As part of my outboard
> > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > flush
> > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV "red
> > pop")
> > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > systems
> > > > > of my outboards. propylene glycol will
> > prevent
> > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the water
> > pump
> > > > housing. During the
> > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I gently
> > pull
> > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > the
> > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to break the
> > water
> > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > give
> > > > > the engine several minutes of low speed
> > warm-up.
> > > > >
> > > > > The result, the only water pump I've ever had
> > fail
> > > > on any of my
> > > > > outboards in
> > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time when my
> > younger
> > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp outboard up on
> > the
> > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > at
> > > > > full throttle. The water pump impellor was
> > burnt
> > > > to a crisp!
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck!
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> > Pump
> > > > Replacement
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work, maybe
> > the
> > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > but
> > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only putting
> > 25-50
> > > > hours on
> > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you do have
> > to
> > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean the pee
> > tub
> > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine that is
> > not
> > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > get
> > > > > it and they need to be replace every two
> > years,
> > > > luckily it
> > > > > > is also a simple job that you can do
> > yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MJM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland" <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:25 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> > Pump
> > > > Replacement
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam recommends
> > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with this
> > the
> > > > first year in service.
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months, occasionally
> > flush
> > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > month), and end of season run it in a
> > barrel
> > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits, etc.).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> > proceeding
> > > > with this replacement
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > [4]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > [5]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > [6]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >[7]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________
> > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> > online.
> > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > [9]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > [10]www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > Keep up with high-tech trends here at "Hook'd on
> > Technology."
> > [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> 2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> 3. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 4. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 8. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> 9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 10. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 11. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> 12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> 13. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> 14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>The information transmitted may contain confidential material and is
>intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed.
>Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any
>action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
>prohibited.
>If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the information from
>your system and contact the sender.
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
More information about the Rhodes22-list
mailing list