[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Russell Miller
re.miller at att.net
Mon Feb 16 18:22:27 EST 2004
They need the smaller motor for troling, etc. The big one does not throttle
down enough.
Russ
s/v Bulldog
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> One thing that I would add. When you go to buy a new
> motor; pop off the cover and ask yourself - What would
> I do if it stop working far from shore? Make you
> think!!! FYI- Has everyone seen these Big Bass Boats
> with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you notice they
> all are carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> Kicker:-) Wonder why???????????????
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Jim
> > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how
> > can you say they will become a thing of the past? I
> > don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has
> > brought
> > one. Their heavy and most folks can work on them
> > themselfs. When you are out on the water & your
> > motor
> > goes out; being able to work on it yourself is more
> > important than polluting the air and/or water.
> > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are
> > not the big factor that pollute water. That like
> > saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
> > people. Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> > health
> > problem. 2 stroke will not be done away with except
> > on small bodies of water (that if the facts were
> > known
> > are poluted by things other that oil) & Calaforia
> > (where all the crazy enviromentists live). The
> > reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that
> > they
> > get all the repair business. Why fall into that
> > game.
> > If you want to throw away your money; give it to
> > me;
> > I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no
> > only
> > > in sailors circles,
> > > but motorboat circles and generates spirited
> > and
> > > lively debate- it's
> > > akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> > former
> > > mechanic turned
> > > biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with
> > > outboards, and repair
> > > shops at our facility each day. We probably log
> > > more water time than
> > > the average individual (I would guess). Here
> > are
> > > some of the things
> > > that I have become aware of over the past
> > several
> > > years:
> > > 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a
> > > thing of the past.
> > > Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> > emissions
> > > in the water, as
> > > well as the air will cause the death of the
> > > 2-stroke. Common sense
> > > then tells us that it will become increasingly
> > > difficult to obtain
> > > parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes
> > > all engines pollute,
> > > and modern two strokes pollute much less than
> > > older ones. There are
> > > real fears out there like folks who mix their
> > oil
> > > in the field (i.e.
> > > in the parking lot or out on the water, and
> > spill
> > > directly, or older 2
> > > strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
> > > addition of the oil,
> > > running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > > pots").....these are all well
> > > founded fears that the regulators & and
> > > environmentalists (especially)
> > > justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> > > 2. Four stroke engines are inherently heavier
> > > than two strokes to a
> > > certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or
> > > so), at which time the
> > > weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great
> > > deal of difference to
> > > the small engine/small boat owner, especially
> > > ones like
> > > us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the
> > > weight of those smaller
> > > engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> > > 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation
> > have
> > > a higher low end
> > > torque which can be useful if you're powering a
> > > boat that needs to
> > > "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> > doesn't
> > > apply to sailcraft.
> > > However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing
> > that
> > > gap also.
> > > 4. According to our shops, four stroke engines
> > > have fewer problems,
> > > and see far less down time and many of our
> > former
> > > two stroke engine
> > > fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > > especially sailboat owners are
> > > now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a
> > > major selling point.
> > > However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a
> > > more costly repair
> > > than a comparable two stroke, but again, with
> > > design changes in both
> > > engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > > In any event, our facility has now plunged into
> > > the 4 stroke world
> > > along with the tide of others. BTW I have a
> > 2002
> > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > > auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for
> > my
> > > newly acquired
> > > Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > > Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > > diatribe/dissertation...
> > > JDWHITE
> > > At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> > >
> > > Wally
> > > I can't remember where I read the article
> > about
> > > 2
> > > strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> > > probably. But I would think you are right.
> > If
> > > the
> > > smaller motors don't already; its just a
> > matter
> > > of
> > > time.
> > > Steve
> > > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes
> > > were only
> > > > coming out in the
> > > > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think
> > > that the
> > > > technolgy will trickly
> > > > down to the smaller motors as well but you
> > > never
> > > > know.....
> > > >
> > > > Wally
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes
> > 22
> > > mail
> > > > list
> > > > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs
> > 4
> > > cycle
> > > > smoke
> > > > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >Steve,
> > > > > The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
> > > are not
> > > > smoke pots. They
> > > > >more than comply with the current
> > > environmental
> > > > standards and they will
> > > > >comply with the new impending standards.
> > > > > As for using oil, all gas motors use
> > > oil and some
> > > > of that
> > > > >lubricating oil is combusted. The issue
> > is
> > > how
> > > > much of that oil and gas
> > > > >is wasted directly into the environment.
> > > The old 2
> > > > cycle engines did
> > > > >not care. However, the EPA standards got
> > > the
> > > > manufacturers attention
> > > > >and the new engines do not statistically
> > > pollute
> > > > the environment more
> > > > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> > > pollutants.
> > > > All gas engines
> > > > >pollute. It is a matter of degree. When
> > > that
> > > > degree is evaluated
> > > > >statistically is the difference
> > significant?
> > > > Simply put, will the
> > > > >impact difference between the two types of
> > > motors
> > > > on the environment
> > > > >really matter? A few years ago the answer
> > > was yes,
> > > > however, with design
> > > > >changes the effects are no longer
> > > statistically
> > > > significant. They both
> > > > >pollute.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed
> > K
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > >
> > > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Steve
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> > > cycle
> > > > >
> > > > >I thought the reason they came out with 4
> > > strocks
> > > > were
> > > > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You
> > know,
> > > you
> > > > have
> > > > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> > > non-smoking
> > > > >part. You can now have a smoking part of
> > a
> > > lake; &
> > > > a
> > > > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks
> > > that go
> > > > 4
> > > > >stoke; that means the more folks that can
> > go
> > > 2
> > > > stoke.
> > > > >And the enviroment only get poluted the
> > same
> > > amount
> > > > >that we have always done for
> > years:-)Beside,
> > > we
> > > > need a
> > > > >little more Globle warming. Temps here
> > are
> > > in the
> > > > >40s. That evendent that we need to polute
> > > quite a
> > > > bit
> > > > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so are
> > > winter
> > > > stay
> > > > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> > > > Michael:-)
> > > > >Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
> > > sessions
> > > > version
> > > > > > of the question, "So how much harm are
> > > you
> > > > willing
> > > > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> > > miscarry,
> > > > children
> > > > > > born with birth defects, men going
> > > impememnt,
> > > > etc..
> > > > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your
> > wife
> > > to day
> > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MJM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12
> > > AM
> > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> > > cycle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > > > Here we go again. I know better than
> > > question
> > > > the
> > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> > > eloquent
> > > > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
> > > Roger
> > > > forgets
> > > > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > > > two robust sons to help. It is the
> > old
> > > > problem of
> > > > > > being able to see a
> > > > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From:
> > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > >
> > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 7:52
> > > AM
> > > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > Water
> > > > Pump
> > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jay,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> > > > impellors on
> > > > > > small outboards is
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > they are made from some sort of
> > rubber.
> > > It's
> > > > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > > > design.
> > > > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> > rubber
> > > vanes
> > > > on
> > > > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > > > water
> > > > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
> > > positive
> > > > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > > > At
> > > > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
> > > out of
> > > > the
> > > > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
> > > surface
> > > > of
> > > > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > > > At
> > > > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > experience
> > > any
> > > > wear
> > > > > > because they are not
> > > > > > > touching the pump housing. This
> > design
> > > makes
> > > > the
> > > > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > > > automatically switching from positive
> > > > displacement
> > > > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > > > mode
> > > > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> > > cooling
> > > > water
> > > > > > required by high speed
> > > > > > > operation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if the
> > water
> > > pump
> > > > ever
> > > > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
> > > cooling
> > > > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > > quickly, like
> > > > in a
> > > > > > few seconds!
> > > > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
> > > oil film
> > > > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
> > > the
> > > > rubber
> > > > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
> > > cracking,
> > > > and
> > > > > > failure. This is
> > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> > > > mechanism.
> > > > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due
> > to
> > > this
> > > > cause
> > > > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > > > another common failure mechanism
> > > related to
> > > > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
> > > cooling
> > > > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > > self-priming at
> > > > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > > > water &
> > > > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
> > > amount
> > > > of
> > > > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > it. When the cooling system drains
> > > down, a
> > > > small
> > > > > > amount of water is
> > > > > > > left
> > > > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
> > > vanes on
> > > > the
> > > > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > aluminum pump housing. When this
> > water
> > > > eventually
> > > > > > evaporates in
> > > > > > > storage,
> > > > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
> > > salt
> > > > crystals
> > > > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond
> > is,
> > > the
> > > > rubber
> > > > > > impellor can be
> > > > > > > damaged
> > > > > > > the next time the engine is started
> > > when the
> > > > vanes
> > > > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for the
> > > 1st few
> > > > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form
> > a
> > > > relatively
> > > > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
> > > vanes have
> > > > to
> > > > > > run over on every
> > > > > > > revolution. Finally, there can be
> > > corrosion
> > > > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > > > crystals
> > > > > > > in long-term contact with the
> > aluminum
> > > pump
> > > > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> > > practice to
> > > > fresh
> > > > > > water flush the
> > > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > > system after every use & certainly
> > > before
> > > > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt
> > to
> > > fresh
> > > > water
> > > > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > > > system
> > > > > > > prior to start-up. As part of my
> > > outboard
> > > > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > > > flush
> > > > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze
> > (RV
> > > "red
> > > > pop")
> > > > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > of my outboards. propylene glycol
> > will
> > > > prevent
> > > > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
> > > water
> > > > pump
> > > > > > housing. During the
> > > > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
> > > gently
> > > > pull
> > > > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to
> > break
> > > the
> > > > water
> > > > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > the engine several minutes of low
> > speed
> > > > warm-up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
> > > ever had
> > > > fail
> > > > > > on any of my
> > > > > > > outboards in
> > > > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time
> > when
> > > my
> > > > younger
> > > > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > > outboard up on
> > > > the
> > > > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > full throttle. The water pump
> > impellor
> > > was
> > > > burnt
> > > > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 2:25
> > > AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > Water
> > > > Pump
> > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
> > > maybe
> > > > the
> > > > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
> > > putting
> > > > 25-50
> > > > > > hours on
> > > > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
> > > do have
> > > > to
> > > > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> > clean
> > > the pee
> > > > tub
> > > > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
> > > that is
> > > > not
> > > > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > it and they need to be replace every
> > > two
> > > > years,
> > > > > > luckily it
> > > > > > > > is also a simple job that you can
> > do
> > > > yourself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
> > > 11:25 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> > > Water
> > > > Pump
> > > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > > recommends
> > > > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001
> > with
> > > this
> > > > the
> > > > > > first year in service.
> > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > > occasionally
> > > > flush
> > > > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > > > month), and end of season run it
> > in
> > > a
> > > > barrel
> > > > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
> > > etc.).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> > > > proceeding
> > > > > > with this replacement
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Keep up with high-tech trends here at
> > "Hook'd
> > > on
> > > > Technology."
> > > >
> > > [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> > filing
> > > online.
> > > [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > 2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > 3. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 4. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 8. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > 9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 10. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 11.
> > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > 12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > 13. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > 14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> > online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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