[Rhodes22-list] help?

[Kroposki]

What kind of Help?????
                        Ed K

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Info
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 4:45 PM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 410, Issue 2
Importance: High

help

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of
rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 4:33 PM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 410, Issue 2


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam (Steve)
   2. Re: Weather Forecasting (Richard Smith)
   3. Re: Steve's winning fishing boat  (Steve)
   4. Re: Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam  (Wally Buck)
   5. RE: Weather Forecasting (Bob Weber)
   6. RE: Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
      (jbconnolly at comcast.net)
   7. Re: Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
      (R22RumRunner at aol.com)
   8. RE: Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam (Steve)
   9. Re: Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam (Steve)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:31:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad
	nauseam
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <20040218143157.91709.qmail at web14911.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Yeah Rob, those boat & motor companies who sponser
those tournament are the ones that push these big
motors.  I have also heard that why they now have the
guys come back & weight in thier catches a couple
times a day as oppose to just at the end of the day
like it use to be.  But if you show up early for the
tournment & find a few good fishing holes; there is no
need for that shotgun start.

Whats funny, is how dangerous it is to push those
boats that fast where the boat is almost entirely out
of the water.  All it would take is hitting one log &
that boat would flip.  But I would also say that no
one should ever stand in the way of someone doing
somthing so stupid that they get themself killed -
It's thier Constitutional Right, you know:-)
Steve


--- Rob Lowe <rlowe at vt.edu> wrote:
> Last year when we were headed back to the marina
> just before dusk, we
> noticed a bunch of boats gathered around the
> entrance.  All of a sudden, all
> of them shot out of there like (pick your favorite
> metaphor).  As they
> scattered to all parts of the lake the noise and the
> waves were hard to
> describe.  Mark, who happened to be with us, said it
> was a shot gun start
> fishing tournament.  So, we figured the 200 hp motor
> is so they can get to
> their favorite fishing hole before the other guy.
> Nothing like a little
> "speed fishing".  Of course, as Steve suggests, a
> big motor don't catch no
> fish.
>
> Rob Lowe
> S/V Getaway
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:05 AM
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle smoke: ad nauseam
>
>
> > Now Jim.
> > Look at the pictures.  Seriously, does that not
> look
> > stupid.  That boat need a 200 hp motor like I need
> a
> > hole in my head:-)  That guy is trying to impress
> > someone but it not happening with me.  That 200 hp
> > motor does nothing for helping his fishing.  There
> was
> > a fishing tournament back in October.  There were
> pics
> > in the paper of all these overpowered bass boats;
> but
> > what got me was the pic of the guy that won the
> > tournment - Proudly holding up this big bass (your
> > gonna love this) standing next to his 14 foot
> tri-hull
> > with a 50 hp motor:-)
> > Steve
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
www.rhodes22.org/list


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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:36:23 -0500
From: "Richard Smith" <sailnut at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Weather Forecasting
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <001201c3f62c$969ef6a0$2f8e4b0c at evereadyinsurance.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

If you stand with your back to the wind low pressure will lie to your
left.

In a similar fashion high pressure will lie to your right.

Why this is so can be easily visualized.  In the northern hemisphere
circulation around an area of low pressure is always counter clockwise.
Therefore if you face away from the prevailing wind the center of a
nearby
area of low pressure will always lie to your left.   Sketch it out...

For this phenomena to be true one must be within the circulation
associated
with the depression.  That's what barometers are for!  If the pressure
is
falling you are in a cyclonic circulation. A rising barometer implies
the
approach of a high pressure system (anti-cyclonic)

Now what does this have to do with weather forecasting;  Severe weather
is
always associated with low pressure because a low pressure (cyclonic)
circulation also features vertical (rising motions).  These rising
motions
are responsible for cloudiness and precipitation.. bad weather.

High pressure (anti-cyclonic) circulation features descending  motions
and
is associated with clear weather.

It follows then that by knowing the location of the storms center the
prudent mariner can take steps to avoid it.

What I have written here is greatly simplified but I think it gets the
concept across.

Richard Smith


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:42:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve's winning fishing boat
To: kroposki at innova.net, The Rhodes 22 mail list
	<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <20040218144217.59121.qmail at web14910.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Excellent, Ed.  Wouldn't that have chap those bass
fishermen:-) Although that 14 foot tri-hull probably
had those boys talking.  Let see, If I remember right
those bass boats with those big motor are probably in
the 30k to 40k range - compared to the winner with his
less than 1k boat:-)

Those big boat do nothing for fishing.  When I was a
kid, I could catch more fish with a cane pole in Black
River compared to all the fancy poles I have now.
Shoot - most of the time when I go fishing now, I only
take 1 pole and I have over 6.  I even have 1 pole
that the last foot on the end of the pole glows in the
dark.  What funny is that I don't fish at night & I
don't have a clue why I brought that pole:-)  I guess
everybody does stupid stuff.  I know I paid to much
for that pole.
Steve

--- Kroposki <kroposki at innova.net> wrote:
> Steve,
> 	And I thought you would say see his 12 foot jon
> boat with 2 hp
> motor.
>                          Ed K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:05 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle smoke: ad nauseam
>
> Now Jim.
> Look at the pictures.  Seriously, does that not look
> stupid.  That boat need a 200 hp motor like I need a
> hole in my head:-)  That guy is trying to impress
> someone but it not happening with me.  That 200 hp
> motor does nothing for helping his fishing.  There
> was
> a fishing tournament back in October.  There were
> pics
> in the paper of all these overpowered bass boats;
> but
> what got me was the pic of the guy that won the
> tournment - Proudly holding up this big bass (your
> gonna love this) standing next to his 14 foot
> tri-hull
> with a 50 hp motor:-)
> Steve
>
>
> --- Jim Connolly <jbconnolly at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Maybe on widdle lakes.  Not on the mighty ocean.
> >
> >
> > OK, sometimes even on little lakes.  See attached
> >
> > Jim Connolly
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:39 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> >
> > I don't know if you guys know this but If you have
> a
> > motor on a fishing boat
> > & its your main motor but it will not throttle
> down
> > enough to move from one
> > fishing hole to the next - You have the wrong
> motor
> > on your
> > boat:-)Especially when you would have a DC
> trolling
> > motor in the water that
> > you will have to pull up; go to the back of you
> boat
> > & put the kicker in the
> > water because your main motor doesn't idle.
> > Hummmmmm, But on a bright note;
> > this is the first time I have seen the 4 stroke
> > justified like this.  There
> > is an old sayings around here - Some folks have
> more
> > Dollars than Sence.  If
> > you are wanting to throw money away - then this
> make
> > perfectly good sence.
> > However, you may want to add a 3rd motor on the
> back
> > of that boat for when
> > both the 4 stroke break down:-)  It only money,
> and
> > it not mine:-) Steve
> >
> >
> > --- Jim Connolly <jbconnolly at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Also, on my old Grady White I had a Yamaha 250
> v-6
> > > 2- stroke.  Kicker was a
> > > Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke for the very reason Russ
> > Miller said.  Advantage
> > > of mixing the two types of engine (in this case)
> > was the 250 had
> > > automatic oil mixing.  Fuel in tanks was not
> > mixed, so the 9.9 ran off
> > > the same fuel tanks as the 250.
> > >
> > > FWIW
> > >
> > > Jim Connolly
> > > s/v Inisheer
> > > 1985 recycled 2003
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Russell
> > > Miller
> > > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 6:22 PM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad
> > > nauseam
> > >
> > > They need the smaller motor for troling, etc.
> The
> > big one does not
> > > throttle down enough.
> > >
> > > Russ
> > > s/v Bulldog
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad
> > > nauseam
> > >
> > >
> > > > One thing that I would add.  When you go to
> buy
> > a
> > > new motor; pop off
> > > > the cover and ask yourself - What would I do
> if
> > it
> > > stop working far
> > > > from shore?  Make you think!!!  FYI- Has
> > everyone
> > > seen these Big Bass
> > > > Boats with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you
> > > notice they all are
> > > > carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> > > > Kicker:-)  Wonder why???????????????
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > Jim
> > > > > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet
> > standards;
> > > how can you say
> > > > > they will become a thing of the past?  I
> don't
> > > know anyone that like
> > > > > a 4 stroke who has brought one.  Their heavy
> > and
> > > most folks can work
> > > > > on them themselfs.  When you are out on the
> > > water & your motor goes
> > > > > out; being able to work on it yourself is
> more
> > > important than
> > > > > polluting the air and/or water.
> > > > > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat
> > motors
> > > are not the big
> > > > > factor that pollute water.  That like saying
> > > that smoking is the #1
> > > > > health problem of people.  Everyone know
> that
> > > being FAT is the #1
> > > > > health problem.  2 stroke will not be done
> > away
> > > with except on small
> > > > > bodies of water (that if the facts were
> known
> > > are poluted by things
> > > > > other that oil)  & Calaforia (where all the
> > > crazy enviromentists
> > > > > live).  The reasons most manufactors push 4
> > > strokes are that they
> > > > > get all the repair business.  Why fall into
> > that
> > > game.
> > > > >  If you want to throw away your money; give
> it
> > > to me; I'll make good
> > > > > use of it and buy some Bourbon:-) Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one
> that
> > no
> > > > > only
> > > > > > in sailors circles,
> > > > > >    but motorboat circles and generates
> > > spirited
> > > > > and
> > > > > > lively debate- it's
> > > > > >    akin to arguing religion or politics.
> As
> > a
> > > > > former
> > > > > > mechanic turned
> > > > > >    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand
> > > with outboards, and
> > > > > > repair
> > > > > >    shops at our facility each day. We
> > probably
> > > log more water time
> > > > > > than
> > > > > >    the average individual (I would guess).
> > > Here
> > > > > are
> > > > > > some of the things
> > > > > >    that I have become aware of over the
> past
> > > > > several
> > > > > > years:
> > > > > >    1. Two stroke engines will very well
> soon
> > > be a thing of the
> > > > > > past.
> > > > > >    Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> > > > > emissions
> > > > > > in the water, as
> > > > > >    well as the air will cause the death of
> > the
> > > 2-stroke. Common
> > > > > > sense
> > > > > >    then tells us that it will become
> > > increasingly difficult to
> > > > > > obtain
> > > > > >    parts for those out of manufacture
> > engines.
> > > Yes all engines
> > > > > > pollute,
> > > > > >    and modern two strokes pollute much
> less
> > > than older ones. There
> > > > > > are
> > > > > >    real fears out there like folks who mix
> > > their
> > > > > oil
> > > > > > in the field (i.e.
> > > > > >    in the parking lot or out on the water,
> > and
> > > > > spill
> > > > > > directly, or older 2
> > > > > >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by
> > human
> > > addition of the
> > > > > > oil,
> > > > > >    running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > > pots").....these are all
> > > > > > well
> > > > > >    founded fears that the regulators & and
> > > environmentalists
> > > > > > (especially)
> > > > > >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2
> > > stroke
> > > > > >    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently
> > > heavier than two strokes
> > > > > > to a
> > > > > >    certain point in horsepower rating
> (about
> > > 90 or so), at which
> > > > > > time the
> > > > > >    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes
> a
> > > great deal of
> > > > > > difference to
> > > > > >    the small engine/small boat owner,
> > > especially ones like
> > > > > >    us....Manufacturers are working on
> > cutting
> > > the weight of those
> > > > > > smaller
> > > > > >    engines though, and the gap is closing
> > > there.
> > > > > >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of
> > > operation
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a higher low end
> > > > > >    torque which can be useful if you're
> > > powering a boat that needs
> > > > > > to
> > > > > >    "get out of the hole"
> quickly....usually
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > apply to sailcraft.
> > > > > >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly
> > closing
> > > > > that
> > > > > > gap also.
> > > > > >    4. According to our shops, four stroke
> > > engines have fewer
> > > > > > problems,
> > > > > >    and see far less down time and many of
> > our
> > > > > former
> > > > > > two stroke engine
> > > > > >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > > especially sailboat
> > > > > > owners are
> > > > > >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this
> > fact
> > > as a major selling
> > > > > > point.
> > > > > >    However, when a four stroke breaks, it
> > can
> > > be a more costly
> > > > > > repair
> > > > > >    than a comparable two stroke, but
> again,
> > > with design changes in
> > > > > > both
> > > > > >    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > > > > >    In any event, our facility has now
> > plunged
> > > into the 4 stroke
> > > > > > world
> > > > > >    along with the tide of others. BTW I
> have
> > a
> > > > > 2002
> > > > > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > > > > >    auxiliary (notice the previous word)
> > power
> > > for
> > > > > my
> > > > > > newly acquired
> > > > > >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > > > > >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > > diatribe/dissertation...
> > > > > >    JDWHITE
> > > > > >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >      Wally
> > > > > >      I can't remember where I read the
> > article
> > > > > about
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > >      strokes meeting standards; one of my
> > sail
> > > mag
> > > > > >      probably.  But I would think you are
> > > right.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      smaller motors don't already; its
> just
> > a
> > > > > matter
> > > > > > of
> > > > > >      time.
> > > > > >      Steve
> > > > > >      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2
> > > strokes were only
> > > > > >      > coming out in the
> > > > > >      > larger motors. Is this true? I got
> to
> > > think that the
> > > > > >      > technolgy will trickly
> > > > > >      > down to the smaller motors as well
> > but
> > > you never
> > > > > >      > know.....
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      > Wally
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      > >From: "Kroposki"
> > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > >      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The
> > > Rhodes
> > > > > 22
> > > > > > mail
> > > > > >      > list
> > > > > >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2
> > cycle
> > > vs
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > cycle
> > > > > >      > smoke
> > > > > >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21
> > -0500
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >Steve,
> > > > > >      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle
> > > engines
> > > > > > are not
> > > > > >      > smoke pots.  They
> > > > > >      > >more than comply with the current
> > > environmental
> > > > > >      > standards and they will
> > > > > >      > >comply with the new impending
> > > standards.
> > > > > >      > >     As for using oil, all gas
> > motors
> > > use
> > > > > > oil and some
> > > > > >      > of that
> > > > > >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The
> > > issue
> > > > > is
> > > > > > how
> > > > > >      > much of that oil and gas
> > > > > >      > >is wasted directly into the
> > > environment.
> > > > > > The old 2
> > > > > >      > cycle engines did
> > > > > >      > >not care.  However, the EPA
> > standards
> > > got the
> > > > > >      > manufacturers attention
> > > > > >      > >and the new engines do not
> > > statistically pollute
> > > > > >      > the environment more
> > > > > >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also
> spew
> > > pollutants.
> > > > > >      > All gas engines
> > > > > >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of
> degree.
> > > When that
> > > > > >      > degree is evaluated
> > > > > >      > >statistically is the difference
> > > > > significant?
> > > > > >      > Simply put, will the
> > > > > >      > >impact difference between the two
> > > types of motors
> > > > > >      > on the environment
> > > > > >      > >really matter?  A few years ago
> the
> > > answer was yes,
> > > > > >      > however, with design
> > > > > >      > >changes the effects are no longer
> > > statistically
> > > > > >      > significant.  They both
> > > > > >      > >pollute.
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >
>
> >
> > > Ed
> > > > > K
> > > > > >      > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >      > >From:
> > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On
> > > > > >      > Behalf Of Steve
> > > > > >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004
> > 9:01
> > > AM
> > > > > >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2
> cycle
> > > vs 4 cycle
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >I thought the reason they came out
> > > with 4 strocks
> > > > > >      > were
> > > > > >      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-)
> > You
> > > > > know,
> > > > > > you
> > > > > >      > have
> > > > > >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant;
> and
> > a
> > > non-smoking
> > > > > >      > >part.  You can now have a smoking
> > part
> > > of
> > > > > a
> > > > > > lake; &
> > > > > >      > a
> > > > > >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the
> more
> > > folks that go
> > > > > >      > 4
> > > > > >      > >stoke; that means the more folks
> > that
> > > can
> > > > > go
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > >      > stoke.
> > > > > >      > >And the enviroment only get
> poluted
> > > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > amount
> > > > > >      > >that we have always done for
> > > > > years:-)Beside,
> > > > > > we
> > > > > >      > need a
> > > > > >      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps
> > > here
> > > > > are
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need
> to
> > > polute quite a
> > > > > >      > bit
> > > > > >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up
> > so
> > > are winter
> > > > > >      > stay
> > > > > >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you
> > > thinking,
> > > > > >      > Michael:-)
> > > > > >      > >Steve
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for
> > the
> > > sessions
> > > > > >      > version
> > > > > >      > > > of the question, "So how much
> > harm
> > > are you
> > > > > >      > willing
> > > > > >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat,
> woman
> > > miscarry,
> > > > > >      > children
> > > > > >      > > > born with birth defects, men
> > going
> > > impememnt,
> > > > > >      > etc..
> > > > > >      > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat
> > > your
> > > > > wife
> > > > > > to day
> > > > > >      > :-)
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > > MJM
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >      > > > From: "Kroposki"
> > > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > 2004
> > > 9:12 AM
> > > > > >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2
> cycle
> > vs
> > > 4 cycle
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know
> > better
> > > than question
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > technical
> > > > > >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of
> > Roger's
> > > eloquent
> > > > > >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by
> > myself.
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > >      > forgets
> > > > > >      > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > >      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It
> is
> > > the
> > > > > old
> > > > > >      > problem of
> > > > > >      > > > being able to see a
> > > > > >      > > > > tree when you are in a
> forest.
> > > > > >      > > > > Ed K
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >      > > > > From:
> > > > > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >
> > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > > On
> > > > > >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > > 2004
> > > > > 7:52
> > > > > > AM
> > > > > >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > > Yamaha
> > > > > 9.9
> > > > > > Water
> > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Jay,
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > The usual problem with the
> > water
> > > pump
> > > > > >      > impellors on
> > > > > >      > > > small outboards is
> > > > > >      > > > > that
> > > > > >      > > > > they are made from some sort
> of
> > > > > rubber.
> > > > > >  It's
> > > > > >      > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > >      > > > > design.
> > > > > >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up,
> the
> > > > > rubber
> > > > > > vanes
> > > > > >      > on
> > > > > >      > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > >      > > > > water
> > > > > >      > > > > pump housing, thus making the
> > > pump
> > > > > > positive
> > > > > >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > >      > > > > At
> > > > > >      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes
> > > deflect
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > >      > > > > boundary layer of water on
> the
> > > wetted
> > > > > > surface
> > > > > >      > of
> > > > > >      > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > >      > > > > At
> > > > > >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > > > > experience
> > > > > > any
> > > > > >      > wear
> > > > > >      > > > because they are not
> > > > > >      > > > > touching the pump housing.
> > This
> > > > > design
> > > > > > makes
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > >      > > > > automatically switching from
> > > positive
> > > > > >      > displacement
> > > > > >      > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > >      > > > > mode
> > > > > >      > > > > for delivering the high
> volume
> > of cooling
> > > > > >      > water
> > > > > >      > > > required by high speed
> > > > > >      > > > > operation.
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if
> > the
> > > > > water
> > > > > > pump
> > > > > >      > ever
> > > > > >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > >      > > > > impellor will lose the
> > > lubrication &
> > > > > > cooling
> > > > > >      > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself
> very
> > quickly, like
> > > > > >      > in a
> > > > > >      > > > few seconds!
> > > > > >      > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water
> > (like
> > > the
> > > > > > oil film
> > > > > >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > >      > > > > outboards) will gradually
> break
> > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      > rubber
> > > > > >      > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > >      > > > > impellor; leading to
> > > embrittlement,
> > > > > > cracking,
> > > > > >      > and
> > > > > >      > > > failure.  This is
> > > > > >      > > > > probably
> > > > > >      > > > > the single biggest long-term
> > > failure
> > > > > >      > mechanism.
> > > > > >      > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > >      > > > > be
> > > > > >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4
> > years
> > > due
> > > > > to
> > > > > > this
> > > > > >      > cause
> > > > > >      > > > alone.  There is also
> > > > > >      > > > > another common failure
> > mechanism related to
> > > > > >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
> > > > > >      > > > > is
> > > > > >      > > > > lifted free of the water, the
> > > entire
> > > > > > cooling
> > > > > >      > > > system drains down.  This
> > > > > >      > > > > is
> > > > > >      > > > > why the water pump needs to
> be
> > self-priming at
> > > > > >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
> > > > > >      > > > > water &
> > > > > >      > > > > especially ocean water, has a
> > > certain
> > > > > > amount
> > > > > >      > of
> > > > > >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > >      > > > > in
> > > > > >      > > > > it.  When the cooling system
> > > drains
> > > > > > down, a
> > > > > >      > small
> > > > > >      > > > amount of water is
> > > > > >      > > > > left
> > > > > >      > > > > trapped in between the ends
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > vanes on
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When
> > this
> > > > > water
> > > > > >      > eventually
> > > > > >      > > > evaporates in
> > > > > >      > > > > storage,
> > > > > >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be
> > bonded
> > > by
> > > > > > salt
> > > > > >      > crystals
> > > > > >      > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > >      > > > > Depending upon how strong
> this
> > > bond
> > > > > is,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      > rubber
> > > > > >      > > > impellor can be
> > > > > >      > > > > damaged
> > > > > >      > > > > the next time the engine is
> > > started
> > > > > > when the
> > > > > >      > vanes
> > > > > >      > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > >      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition,
> > for
> > > the
> > > > > > 1st few
> > > > > >      > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > >      > > > > before
> > > > > >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve,
> > they
> > > form
> > > > > a
> > > > > >      > relatively
> > > > > >      > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > >      > > > > water pump housing that the
> > > rubber
> > > > > > vanes have
> > > > > >      > to
> > > > > >      > > > run over on every
> > > > > >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there
> can
> > > be
> > > > > > corrosion
> > > > > >      > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > >      > > > > crystals
> > > > > >      > > > > in long-term contact with the
> > > > > aluminum
> > > > > > pump
> > > > > >      > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > >      > > > > In
> > > > > >      > > > > salt water, it's considered
> > good practice to
> > > > > >      > fresh
> > > > > >      > > > water flush the
> > > > > >      > > > > cooling
> > > > > >      > > > > system after every use &
> > > certainly
> > > > > > before
> > > > > >      > > > long-term storage.  After
> > > > > >      > > > > long-term storage, it
> wouldn't
> > > hurt
> > > > > to
> > > > > > fresh
> > > > > >      > water
> > > > > >      > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > >      > > > > system
> > > > > >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part
> of
> > my outboard
> > > > > >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > >      > > > > flush
> > > > > >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable
> > > antifreeze
> > > > > (RV
> > > > > > "red
> > > > > >      > pop")
> > > > > >      > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > >      > > > > systems
> > > > > >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene
> > > glycol
> > > > > will
> > > > > >      > prevent
> > > > > >      > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > >      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes
> > and
> > > the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > >      > pump
> > > > > >      > > > housing.  During the
> > > > > >      > > > > boating season, on every
> > > start-up, I
> > > > > > gently
> > > > > >      > pull
> > > > > >      > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting
> it
> > to
> > > > > break
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      > water
> > > > > >      > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > >      > > > > give
> > > > > >      > > > > the engine several minutes of
> > low
> > > > > speed
> > > > > >      > warm-up.
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > The result, the only water
> pump
> > > I've
> > > > > > ever had
> > > > > >      > fail
> > > > > >      > > > on any of my
> > > > > >      > > > > outboards in
> > > > > >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the
> > time
> > > > > when
> > > > > > my
> > > > > >      > younger
> > > > > >      > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9
> hp
> > outboard up on
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > >      > > > > at
> > > > > >      > > > > full throttle.  The water
> pump
> > > > > impellor
> > > > > > was
> > > > > >      > burnt
> > > > > >      > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > >      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > > > >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > > 2004
> > > > > 2:25
> > > > > > AM
> > > > > >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > > Yamaha
> > > > > 9.9
> > > > > > Water
> > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and
> make
> > > work,
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > >      > > > > but
> > > > > >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you
> are
> > > only
> > > > > > putting
> > > > > >      > 25-50
> > > > > >      > > > hours on
> > > > > >      > > > > > the motor every year, one
> > thing
> > > you
> > > > > > do have
> > > > > >      > to
> > > > > >      > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the
> > pelages,
> > > > > clean
> > > > > > the pee
> > > > > >      > tub
> > > > > >      > > > yearly), is
> > > > > >      > > > > > one of the few parts on the
> > > engine
> > > > > > that is
> > > > > >      > not
> > > > > >      > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > >      > > > > get
> > > > > >      > > > > it and they need to be
> replace
> > > every
> > > > > > two
> > > > > >      > years,
> > > > > >      > > > luckily it
> > > > > >      > > > > > is also a simple job that
> you
> > > can
> > > > > do
> > > > > >      > yourself.
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > MJM
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > ----- Original Message
> -----
> > > > > >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > > > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail
> list"
> > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10,
> > > 2004
> > > > > > 11:25 AM
> > > > > >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list]
> > Yamaha
> > > 9.9
> > > > > > Water
> > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says
> Yam
> > recommends
> > > > > >      > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > >      > > > > assembly
> > > > > >      > > > > > > every year. The motor is
> > 2001
> > > > > with
> > > > > > this
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > first year in service.
> > > > > >      > > > > I'm
> > > > > >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10
> months,
> > occasionally
> > > > > >      > flush
> > > > > >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > >      > > > > > > month), and end of season
> > run
> > > it
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a
> > > > > >      > barrel
> > > > > >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off
> > > deposits,
> > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best
> > > suggestions on
> > > > > >      > proceeding
> > > > > >      > > > with this replacement
> > > > > >      > > > > or
> > > > > >      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > > > > Use
> > > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > > Help?
> > > > > >      > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > > > Use
> > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > Help?
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> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > > Help?
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> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > > Help?
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> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > Help?
> > > > > >      > >[7]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >__________________________________
> > > > > >      > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > >      > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund
> fast
> > > by
> > > > > > filing
> > > > > >      > online.
> > > > > >      >
> > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> > Help?
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> > >
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> > > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > Keep up with high-tech trends here
> at
> > > > > "Hook'd
> > > > > > on
> > > > > >      > Technology."
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> Help?
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> by
> > > > > filing
> > > > > > online.
> > > > > >
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> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > References
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    1.
> > > mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >    2.
> > > mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >    3. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >    4. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >    5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >    6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >    7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >    8. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > >    9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >   10. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >   11.
> > > > >
> http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > > > >   12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >   13. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > >   14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > >
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:26:26 -0500
From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad
	nauseam
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <Sea1-F48mdexI32f4QU00065bab at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I see the high speed bass boats all the time. I find it amusing that
just
going fishing  is so dangerous you need to wear full helmets. :-)

A while back a train wrecked near the river leaking something that
created
toxic fumes. I can't remember what but I think it was chlorine.  Anyway
they
had to evacuate an area of several square miles. Most of the fumes
stretched
out across the river. Both TVA and TWRA had boats out and "closed" the
river. This all took place during a Bass Tournament and a couple of the
boats were caught on the wrong side of the fumes. When they tried to
return
for the weigh in the could not get through. One boat decided that toxic
fumes be damned, we got some big fish in the well. They went right
through
the fumes at high speed and out ran the blockade.

They made it back to the weigh in and actualy won the $35,000 bass boat
that
was first prize. They were later arrested at the weigh in site and they
were
denied their prize. They wound up filing a law suit of course.  I think
they
lost the suit and had to pay several hundred dollars in fines.

I use the cheap Walmart rod and reel combos that cost about $15 dollars.
I
keep one on the boat year round with a small tackle box. I fish from
both my
sail boat and my kayak.

Fair Winds!


>From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:31:57 -0800 (PST)
>
>Yeah Rob, those boat & motor companies who sponser
>those tournament are the ones that push these big
>motors.  I have also heard that why they now have the
>guys come back & weight in thier catches a couple
>times a day as oppose to just at the end of the day
>like it use to be.  But if you show up early for the
>tournment & find a few good fishing holes; there is no
>need for that shotgun start.
>
>Whats funny, is how dangerous it is to push those
>boats that fast where the boat is almost entirely out
>of the water.  All it would take is hitting one log &
>that boat would flip.  But I would also say that no
>one should ever stand in the way of someone doing
>somthing so stupid that they get themself killed -
>It's thier Constitutional Right, you know:-)
>Steve
>
>
>--- Rob Lowe <rlowe at vt.edu> wrote:
> > Last year when we were headed back to the marina
> > just before dusk, we
> > noticed a bunch of boats gathered around the
> > entrance.  All of a sudden, all
> > of them shot out of there like (pick your favorite
> > metaphor).  As they
> > scattered to all parts of the lake the noise and the
> > waves were hard to
> > describe.  Mark, who happened to be with us, said it
> > was a shot gun start
> > fishing tournament.  So, we figured the 200 hp motor
> > is so they can get to
> > their favorite fishing hole before the other guy.
> > Nothing like a little
> > "speed fishing".  Of course, as Steve suggests, a
> > big motor don't catch no
> > fish.
> >
> > Rob Lowe
> > S/V Getaway
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:05 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> >
> >
> > > Now Jim.
> > > Look at the pictures.  Seriously, does that not
> > look
> > > stupid.  That boat need a 200 hp motor like I need
> > a
> > > hole in my head:-)  That guy is trying to impress
> > > someone but it not happening with me.  That 200 hp
> > > motor does nothing for helping his fishing.  There
> > was
> > > a fishing tournament back in October.  There were
> > pics
> > > in the paper of all these overpowered bass boats;
> > but
> > > what got me was the pic of the guy that won the
> > > tournment - Proudly holding up this big bass (your
> > > gonna love this) standing next to his 14 foot
> > tri-hull
> > > with a 50 hp motor:-)
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
>__________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:50:18 -0600
From: "Bob Weber" <ruba1811 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Weather Forecasting
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <Law11-F92vdp1NR1AN600020c88 at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Slim, To find the center of a Low you put your back to the wind and put
your
LEFT arm out.  That should point to the center of the low.  If your
barometer reads greater than 29.92 use the same trick with your right
hand
and that should point to the High.  We are currently getting nice south
west
winds from a low which is centered in the NW corner of missouri.  Havent
checked the pressure but it may still indicate the high which has
dominated.
  This probably is intended for strom conditiions where you are very
close
to the center.  Hope it helps.  Bob


>From: Steve Alm <salm at mn.rr.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: Rhodes <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Weather Forecasting
>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:40:24 -0600
>
>Hi all,
>
>I once read an old, sort of folksy way to evaluate/predict the weather,
>where you stand with your back to the wind or the approaching front or
>something, and then on your left will be...something.  Obviously I
don't
>remember how it goes.  Does anybody know this one?  It can't be any
worse
>than the meteorologists.  8-)
>
>Slim
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:03:24 +0000
From: jbconnolly at comcast.net
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad
	nauseam
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <021820042003.9516.f5c at comcast.net>

I do not claim to understand the lake fisherman mentality.  ;-)

OTOH, if you are going 50+ miles offshore, it's nice to have 2 motors,
and
they don't both have to produce 250 HP and cost $13,000.  In addition to
providing "get home" backup, you get a lot better control at slow speed
for
station keeping, less plug fouling on the big 2-stroke, and better fuel
economy loitering over fishing spots.  For further details, ask a real
fisherman, I usually just drove the boat.  Fuel economy is a
consideration,
even when you jave more than 150 gallons onboard, you can burn that in
6-8
yours with the big motor.

Last year, I burned less than 3 gallons of gasoline all summer in my
2-stroke 8 HP Tohatsu.  Life was good.

I think we can all agree on that.

Jim Connolly
> Now Jim.
> Look at the pictures.  Seriously, does that not look
> stupid.  That boat need a 200 hp motor like I need a
> hole in my head:-)  That guy is trying to impress
> someone but it not happening with me.  That 200 hp
> motor does nothing for helping his fishing.  There was
> a fishing tournament back in October.  There were pics
> in the paper of all these overpowered bass boats; but
> what got me was the pic of the guy that won the
> tournment - Proudly holding up this big bass (your
> gonna love this) standing next to his 14 foot tri-hull
> with a 50 hp motor:-)
> Steve
>
>
> --- Jim Connolly <jbconnolly at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Maybe on widdle lakes.  Not on the mighty ocean.
> >
> >
> > OK, sometimes even on little lakes.  See attached
> >
> > Jim Connolly
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:39 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list

> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> >
> > I don't know if you guys know this but If you have a
> > motor on a fishing boat
> > & its your main motor but it will not throttle down
> > enough to move from one
> > fishing hole to the next - You have the wrong motor
> > on your
> > boat:-)Especially when you would have a DC trolling
> > motor in the water that
> > you will have to pull up; go to the back of you boat
> > & put the kicker in the
> > water because your main motor doesn't idle.
> > Hummmmmm, But on a bright note;
> > this is the first time I have seen the 4 stroke
> > justified like this.  There
> > is an old sayings around here - Some folks have more
> > Dollars than Sence.  If
> > you are wanting to throw money away - then this make
> > perfectly good sence.
> > However, you may want to add a 3rd motor on the back
> > of that boat for when
> > both the 4 stroke break down:-)  It only money, and
> > it not mine:-) Steve
> >
> >

> > --- Jim Connolly <jbconnolly at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Also, on my old Grady White I had a Yamaha 250 v-6
> > > 2- stroke.  Kicker was a
> > > Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke for the very reason Russ
> > Miller said.  Advantage
> > > of mixing the two types of engine (in this case)
> > was the 250 had
> > > automatic oil mixing.  Fuel in tanks was not
> > mixed, so the 9.9 ran off
> > > the same fuel tanks as the 250.
> > >
> > > FWIW
> > >
> > > Jim Connolly
> > > s/v Inisheer
> > > 1985 recycled 2003
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf Of Russell
> > > Miller
> > > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 6:22 PM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad
> > > nauseam
> > >
> > > They need the smaller motor for troling, etc.  The
> > big one does not
> > > throttle down enough.
> > >
> > > Russ
> > > s/v Bulldog
> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle smoke: ad
> > > nauseam
> > >
> > >
> > > > One thing that I would add.  When you go to buy
> > a
> > > new motor; pop off
> > > > the cover and ask yourself - What would I do if
> > it
> > > stop working far
> > > > from shore?  Make you think!!!  FYI- Has
> > everyone
> > > seen these Big Bass
> > > > Boats with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you
> > > notice they all are
> > > > carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> > > > Kicker:-)  Wonder why???????????????
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > Jim
> > > > > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet
> > standards;
> > > how can you say
> > > > > they will become a thing of the past?  I don't
> > > know anyone that like
> > > > > a 4 stroke who has brought one.  Their heavy
> > and

> > > most folks can work
> > > > > on them themselfs.  When you are out on the
> > > water & your motor goes
> > > > > out; being able to work on it yourself is more
> > > important than
> > > > > polluting the air and/or water.
> > > > > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat
> > motors
> > > are not the big
> > > > > factor that pollute water.  That like saying
> > > that smoking is the #1
> > > > > health problem of people.  Everyone know that
> > > being FAT is the #1
> > > > > health problem.  2 stroke will not be done
> > away
> > > with except on small
> > > > > bodies of water (that if the facts were known
> > > are poluted by things
> > > > > other that oil)  & Calaforia (where all the
> > > crazy enviromentists
> > > > > live).  The reasons most manufactors push 4
> > > strokes are that they
> > > > > get all the repair business.  Why fall into
> > that
> > > game.
> > > > >  If you want to throw away your money; give it
> > > to me; I'll make good
> > > > > use of it and buy some Bourbon:-) Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >

> > > > > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that
> > no
> > > > > only
> > > > > > in sailors circles,
> > > > > >    but motorboat circles and generates
> > > spirited
> > > > > and
> > > > > > lively debate- it's
> > > > > >    akin to arguing religion or politics. As
> > a
> > > > > former
> > > > > > mechanic turned
> > > > > >    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand
> > > with outboards, and
> > > > > > repair
> > > > > >    shops at our facility each day. We
> > probably
> > > log more water time
> > > > > > than
> > > > > >    the average individual (I would guess).
> > > Here
> > > > > are
> > > > > > some of the things
> > > > > >    that I have become aware of over the past
> > > > > several
> > > > > > years:
> > > > > >    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon
> > > be a thing of the
> > > > > > past.
> > > > > >    Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> > > > > emissions
> > > > > > in the water, as

> > > > > >    well as the air will cause the death of
> > the
> > > 2-stroke. Common
> > > > > > sense
> > > > > >    then tells us that it will become
> > > increasingly difficult to
> > > > > > obtain
> > > > > >    parts for those out of manufacture
> > engines.
> > > Yes all engines
> > > > > > pollute,
> > > > > >    and modern two strokes pollute much less
> > > than older ones. There
> > > > > > are
> > > > > >    real fears out there like folks who mix
> > > their
> > > > > oil
> > > > > > in the field (i.e.
> > > > > >    in the parking lot or out on the water,
> > and
> > > > > spill
> > > > > > directly, or older 2
> > > > > >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by
> > human
> > > addition of the
> > > > > > oil,
> > > > > >    running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > > pots").....these are all
> > > > > > well
> > > > > >    founded fears that the regulators & and
> > > environmentalists
> > > > > > (especially)
> > > > > >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2
> > > stroke

> > > > > >    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently
> > > heavier than two strokes
> > > > > > to a
> > > > > >    certain point in horsepower rating (about
> > > 90 or so), at which
> > > > > > time the
> > > > > >    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a
> > > great deal of
> > > > > > difference to
> > > > > >    the small engine/small boat owner,
> > > especially ones like
> > > > > >    us....Manufacturers are working on
> > cutting
> > > the weight of those
> > > > > > smaller
> > > > > >    engines though, and the gap is closing
> > > there.
> > > > > >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of
> > > operation
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a higher low end
> > > > > >    torque which can be useful if you're
> > > powering a boat that needs
> > > > > > to
> > > > > >    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > apply to sailcraft.
> > > > > >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly
> > closing
> > > > > that
> > > > > > gap also.
> > > > > >    4. According to our shops, four stroke
> > > engines have fewer

> > > > > > problems,
> > > > > >    and see far less down time and many of
> > our
> > > > > former
> > > > > > two stroke engine
> > > > > >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > > especially sailboat
> > > > > > owners are
> > > > > >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this
> > fact
> > > as a major selling
> > > > > > point.
> > > > > >    However, when a four stroke breaks, it
> > can
> > > be a more costly
> > > > > > repair
> > > > > >    than a comparable two stroke, but again,
> > > with design changes in
> > > > > > both
> > > > > >    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > > > > >    In any event, our facility has now
> > plunged
> > > into the 4 stroke
> > > > > > world
> > > > > >    along with the tide of others. BTW I have
> > a
> > > > > 2002
> > > > > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > > > > >    auxiliary (notice the previous word)
> > power
> > > for
> > > > > my
> > > > > > newly acquired
> > > > > >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > > > > >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > > diatribe/dissertation...

> > > > > >    JDWHITE
> > > > > >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >      Wally
> > > > > >      I can't remember where I read the
> > article
> > > > > about
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > >      strokes meeting standards; one of my
> > sail
> > > mag
> > > > > >      probably.  But I would think you are
> > > right.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      smaller motors don't already; its just
> > a
> > > > > matter
> > > > > > of
> > > > > >      time.
> > > > > >      Steve
> > > > > >      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2
> > > strokes were only
> > > > > >      > coming out in the
> > > > > >      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to
> > > think that the
> > > > > >      > technolgy will trickly
> > > > > >      > down to the smaller motors as well
> > but
> > > you never
> > > > > >      > know.....
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      > Wally
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      > >From: "Kroposki"

> > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > >      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The
> > > Rhodes
> > > > > 22
> > > > > > mail
> > > > > >      > list
> > > > > >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2
> > cycle
> > > vs
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > cycle
> > > > > >      > smoke
> > > > > >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21
> > -0500
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >Steve,
> > > > > >      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle
> > > engines
> > > > > > are not
> > > > > >      > smoke pots.  They
> > > > > >      > >more than comply with the current
> > > environmental
> > > > > >      > standards and they will
> > > > > >      > >comply with the new impending
> > > standards.
> > > > > >      > >     As for using oil, all gas
> > motors
> > > use
> > > > > > oil and some
> > > > > >      > of that
> > > > > >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The
> > > issue
> > > > > is

> > > > > > how
> > > > > >      > much of that oil and gas
> > > > > >      > >is wasted directly into the
> > > environment.
> > > > > > The old 2
> > > > > >      > cycle engines did
> > > > > >      > >not care.  However, the EPA
> > standards
> > > got the
> > > > > >      > manufacturers attention
> > > > > >      > >and the new engines do not
> > > statistically pollute
> > > > > >      > the environment more
> > > > > >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> > > pollutants.
> > > > > >      > All gas engines
> > > > > >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree.
> > > When that
> > > > > >      > degree is evaluated
> > > > > >      > >statistically is the difference
> > > > > significant?
> > > > > >      > Simply put, will the
> > > > > >      > >impact difference between the two
> > > types of motors
> > > > > >      > on the environment
> > > > > >      > >really matter?  A few years ago the
> > > answer was yes,
> > > > > >      > however, with design
> > > > > >      > >changes the effects are no longer

> > > statistically
> > > > > >      > significant.  They both
> > > > > >      > >pollute.
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >
> >
> > > Ed
> > > > > K
> > > > > >      > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >      > >From:
> > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > >      > Behalf Of Steve
> > > > > >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004
> > 9:01
> > > AM
> > > > > >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> > > vs 4 cycle
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >I thought the reason they came out
> > > with 4 strocks
> > > > > >      > were
> > > > > >      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-)
> > You
> > > > > know,
> > > > > > you
> > > > > >      > have
> > > > > >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and
> > a
> > > non-smoking
> > > > > >      > >part.  You can now have a smoking
> > part
> > > of
> > > > > a
> > > > > > lake; &

> > > > > >      > a
> > > > > >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more
> > > folks that go
> > > > > >      > 4
> > > > > >      > >stoke; that means the more folks
> > that
> > > can
> > > > > go
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > >      > stoke.
> > > > > >      > >And the enviroment only get poluted
> > > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > amount
> > > > > >      > >that we have always done for
> > > > > years:-)Beside,
> > > > > > we
> > > > > >      > need a
> > > > > >      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps
> > > here
> > > > > are
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to
> > > polute quite a
> > > > > >      > bit
> > > > > >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up
> > so
> > > are winter
> > > > > >      > stay
> > > > > >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you
> > > thinking,
> > > > > >      > Michael:-)
> > > > > >      > >Steve
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for
> > the
> > > sessions
> > > > > >      > version
> > > > > >      > > > of the question, "So how much
> > harm
> > > are you
> > > > > >      > willing
> > > > > >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> > > miscarry,
> > > > > >      > children
> > > > > >      > > > born with birth defects, men
> > going
> > > impememnt,
> > > > > >      > etc..
> > > > > >      > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat
> > > your
> > > > > wife
> > > > > > to day
> > > > > >      > :-)
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > > MJM
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >      > > > From: "Kroposki"
> > > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > 2004
> > > 9:12 AM

> > > > > >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> > vs
> > > 4 cycle
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know
> > better
> > > than question
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > technical
> > > > > >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of
> > Roger's
> > > eloquent
> > > > > >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by
> > myself.
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > >      > forgets
> > > > > >      > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > >      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is
> > > the
> > > > > old
> > > > > >      > problem of
> > > > > >      > > > being able to see a
> > > > > >      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > >      > > > > Ed K
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >      > > > > From:
> > > > > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >

> > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > > On
> > > > > >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > > 2004
> > > > > 7:52
> > > > > > AM
> > > > > >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > > Yamaha
> > > > > 9.9
> > > > > > Water
> > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Jay,
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > The usual problem with the
> > water
> > > pump
> > > > > >      > impellors on
> > > > > >      > > > small outboards is
> > > > > >      > > > > that
> > > > > >      > > > > they are made from some sort of
> > > > > rubber.
> > > > > >  It's
> > > > > >      > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > >      > > > > design.
> > > > > >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> > > > > rubber
> > > > > > vanes
> > > > > >      > on
> > > > > >      > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > >      > > > > water

> > > > > >      > > > > pump housing, thus making the
> > > pump
> > > > > > positive
> > > > > >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > >      > > > > At
> > > > > >      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes
> > > deflect
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > >      > > > > boundary layer of water on the
> > > wetted
> > > > > > surface
> > > > > >      > of
> > > > > >      > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > >      > > > > At
> > > > > >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > > > > experience
> > > > > > any
> > > > > >      > wear
> > > > > >      > > > because they are not
> > > > > >      > > > > touching the pump housing.
> > This
> > > > > design
> > > > > > makes
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > >      > > > > automatically switching from
> > > positive
> > > > > >      > displacement
> > > > > >      > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > >      > > > > mode

> > > > > >      > > > > for delivering the high volume
> > of cooling
> > > > > >      > water
> > > > > >      > > > required by high speed
> > > > > >      > > > > operation.
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if
> > the
> > > > > water
> > > > > > pump
> > > > > >      > ever
> > > > > >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > >      > > > > impellor will lose the
> > > lubrication &
> > > > > > cooling
> > > > > >      > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > quickly, like
> > > > > >      > in a
> > > > > >      > > > few seconds!
> > > > > >      > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water
> > (like
> > > the
> > > > > > oil film
> > > > > >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > >      > > > > outboards) will gradually break
> > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      > rubber
> > > > > >      > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > >      > > > > impellor; leading to
> > > embrittlement,

> > > > > > cracking,
> > > > > >      > and
> > > > > >      > > > failure.  This is
> > > > > >      > > > > probably
> > > > > >      > > > > the single biggest long-term
> > > failure
> > > > > >      > mechanism.
> > > > > >      > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > >      > > > > be
> > > > > >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4
> > years
> > > due
> > > > > to
> > > > > > this
> > > > > >      > cause
> > > > > >      > > > alone.  There is also
> > > > > >      > > > > another common failure
> > mechanism related to
> > > > > >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
> > > > > >      > > > > is
> > > > > >      > > > > lifted free of the water, the
> > > entire
> > > > > > cooling
> > > > > >      > > > system drains down.  This
> > > > > >      > > > > is
> > > > > >      > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > self-priming at
> > > > > >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
> > > > > >      > > > > water &
> > > > > >      > > > > especially ocean water, has a
> > > certain
> > > > > > amount
> > > > > >      > of

> > > > > >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > >      > > > > in
> > > > > >      > > > > it.  When the cooling system
> > > drains
> > > > > > down, a
> > > > > >      > small
> > > > > >      > > > amount of water is
> > > > > >      > > > > left
> > > > > >      > > > > trapped in between the ends of
> > > the
> > > > > > vanes on
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When
> > this
> > > > > water
> > > > > >      > eventually
> > > > > >      > > > evaporates in
> > > > > >      > > > > storage,
> > > > > >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be
> > bonded
> > > by
> > > > > > salt
> > > > > >      > crystals
> > > > > >      > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > >      > > > > Depending upon how strong this
> > > bond
> > > > > is,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      > rubber
> > > > > >      > > > impellor can be
> > > > > >      > > > > damaged
> > > > > >      > > > > the next time the engine is
> > > started

> > > > > > when the
> > > > > >      > vanes
> > > > > >      > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > >      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition,
> > for
> > > the
> > > > > > 1st few
> > > > > >      > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > >      > > > > before
> > > > > >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve,
> > they
> > > form
> > > > > a
> > > > > >      > relatively
> > > > > >      > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > >      > > > > water pump housing that the
> > > rubber
> > > > > > vanes have
> > > > > >      > to
> > > > > >      > > > run over on every
> > > > > >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can
> > > be
> > > > > > corrosion
> > > > > >      > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > >      > > > > crystals
> > > > > >      > > > > in long-term contact with the
> > > > > aluminum
> > > > > > pump
> > > > > >      > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > >      > > > > In
> > > > > >      > > > > salt water, it's considered
> > good practice to
> > > > > >      > fresh

> > > > > >      > > > water flush the
> > > > > >      > > > > cooling
> > > > > >      > > > > system after every use &
> > > certainly
> > > > > > before
> > > > > >      > > > long-term storage.  After
> > > > > >      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't
> > > hurt
> > > > > to
> > > > > > fresh
> > > > > >      > water
> > > > > >      > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > >      > > > > system
> > > > > >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of
> > my outboard
> > > > > >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > >      > > > > flush
> > > > > >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable
> > > antifreeze
> > > > > (RV
> > > > > > "red
> > > > > >      > pop")
> > > > > >      > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > >      > > > > systems
> > > > > >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene
> > > glycol
> > > > > will
> > > > > >      > prevent
> > > > > >      > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > >      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes
> > and
> > > the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > >      > pump

> > > > > >      > > > housing.  During the
> > > > > >      > > > > boating season, on every
> > > start-up, I
> > > > > > gently
> > > > > >      > pull
> > > > > >      > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it
> > to
> > > > > break
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >      > water
> > > > > >      > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > >      > > > > give
> > > > > >      > > > > the engine several minutes of
> > low
> > > > > speed
> > > > > >      > warm-up.
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > The result, the only water pump
> > > I've
> > > > > > ever had
> > > > > >      > fail
> > > > > >      > > > on any of my
> > > > > >      > > > > outboards in
> > > > > >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the
> > time
> > > > > when
> > > > > > my
> > > > > >      > younger
> > > > > >      > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > outboard up on
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > beach with the engine

> > > > > >      > > > > at
> > > > > >      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump
> > > > > impellor
> > > > > > was
> > > > > >      > burnt
> > > > > >      > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > >      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > > > >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > > 2004
> > > > > 2:25
> > > > > > AM
> > > > > >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> > > Yamaha
> > > > > 9.9
> > > > > > Water
> > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make
> > > work,
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > >      > the

> > > > > >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > >      > > > > but
> > > > > >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are
> > > only
> > > > > > putting
> > > > > >      > 25-50
> > > > > >      > > > hours on
> > > > > >      > > > > > the motor every year, one
> > thing
> > > you
> > > > > > do have
> > > > > >      > to
> > > > > >      > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the
> > pelages,
> > > > > clean
> > > > > > the pee
> > > > > >      > tub
> > > > > >      > > > yearly), is
> > > > > >      > > > > > one of the few parts on the
> > > engine
> > > > > > that is
> > > > > >      > not
> > > > > >      > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > >      > > > > get
> > > > > >      > > > > it and they need to be replace
> > > every
> > > > > > two
> > > > > >      > years,
> > > > > >      > > > luckily it
> > > > > >      > > > > > is also a simple job that you
> > > can
> > > > > do
> > > > > >      > yourself.
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > MJM
> > > > > >      > > > > >

> > > > > >      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > > > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10,
> > > 2004
> > > > > > 11:25 AM
> > > > > >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list]
> > Yamaha
> > > 9.9
> > > > > > Water
> > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > recommends
> > > > > >      > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > >      > > > > assembly
> > > > > >      > > > > > > every year. The motor is
> > 2001
> > > > > with
> > > > > > this
> > > > > >      > the
> > > > > >      > > > first year in service.
> > > > > >      > > > > I'm
> > > > > >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > occasionally
> > > > > >      > flush

> > > > > >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > >      > > > > > > month), and end of season
> > run
> > > it
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a
> > > > > >      > barrel
> > > > > >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off
> > > deposits,
> > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best
> > > suggestions on
> > > > > >      > proceeding
> > > > > >      > > > with this replacement
> > > > > >      > > > > or
> > > > > >      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > > > > Use
> > > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > > Help?
> > > > > >      > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      >

> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > > > Use
> > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > Help?
> > > > > >      > > > [4]www.rhodes22.org/list
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> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > Help?
> > > > > >      > > > [5]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > Help?
> > > > > >      > > > [6]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,

> > > Help?
> > > > > >      > >[7]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >
> > > > > >      > >__________________________________
> > > > > >      > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > >      > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast
> > > by
> > > > > > filing
> > > > > >      > online.
> > > > > >      >
> > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
> > > > > >      > [9]www.rhodes22.org/list
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
> > > > > >      > [10]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      >
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > Keep up with high-tech trends here at
> > > > > "Hook'd

> > > > > > on
> > > > > >      > Technology."
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >      >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > >      [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >      __________________________________
> > > > > >      Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > >      Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> > > > > filing
> > > > > > online.
> > > > > >      [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > >      Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > > > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > References
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    1.
> > > mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >    2.
> > > mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:18:24 EST
From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad
	nauseam
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <7d.470ca201.2d6530a0 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Steve,
You are absolutely correct about the instability of the Bass Boats. My
wife
and I had the luxury of being out on our Hobie 16 one windless afternoon
and
we
were getting bounced around pretty good by the large three foot rollers
coming off of passing cruisers plowing thru the water. Sure enough,
along
comes one
of those bass herders in a hurry to get to the perfect spot. One of my
gripes
about these guys is that few, if any, have any experience with a boat
prior
to owning their bats out of hell boats. Anywho, this guy and his partner
hit
one of these wakes broadside. The bass boat rolled up the wave and went
completely over. A perfect barrel roll. Landed right side up. Nothing
fell
out of the
boat, not even the fisherman. It happened so fast we couldn't believe
what
we
had just seen. Those two sat there for a long time. No doubt cleaning
out
their shorts. When they left, it was at a considerably slower speed.

Rummy

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:26:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad
	nauseam
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <20040218212622.1378.qmail at web14905.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Yeah, Jim, I concur with that.  I have a one 6 gallon
tank on my boat & never use much over half.  That why
I don't worry about fuel econcomy or would factor that
into buying a new motor.  With my 4.5 hp Johnson, I
spend less that 10 bucks a year on gas for my boat &
that the pre-mix stuff I buy from the dock.  It would
be cheaper if I would buy it myself & mix it but what
the hell - a man got to splurge ones in a while:-)
Also, the manager of our dock is always complaining
that us sailboaters don't spend enough money at the
marina.  So I guess it don't hurt for me to buy gas
from him, ones a year:-)
Steve


--- jbconnolly at comcast.net wrote:
> I do not claim to understand the lake fisherman
> mentality.  ;-)
>
> OTOH, if you are going 50+ miles offshore, it's nice
> to have 2 motors, and they don't both have to
> produce 250 HP and cost $13,000.  In addition to
> providing "get home" backup, you get a lot better
> control at slow speed for station keeping, less plug
> fouling on the big 2-stroke, and better fuel economy
> loitering over fishing spots.  For further details,
> ask a real fisherman, I usually just drove the boat.
>  Fuel economy is a consideration, even when you jave
> more than 150 gallons onboard, you can burn that in
> 6-8 yours with the big motor.
>
> Last year, I burned less than 3 gallons of gasoline
> all summer in my 2-stroke 8 HP Tohatsu.  Life was
> good.
>
> I think we can all agree on that.
>
> Jim Connolly
> > Now Jim.
> > Look at the pictures.  Seriously, does that not
> look
> > stupid.  That boat need a 200 hp motor like I need
> a
> > hole in my head:-)  That guy is trying to impress
> > someone but it not happening with me.  That 200 hp
> > motor does nothing for helping his fishing.  There
> was
> > a fishing tournament back in October.  There were
> pics
> > in the paper of all these overpowered bass boats;
> but
> > what got me was the pic of the guy that won the
> > tournment - Proudly holding up this big bass (your
> > gonna love this) standing next to his 14 foot
> tri-hull
> > with a 50 hp motor:-)
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > --- Jim Connolly <jbconnolly at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Maybe on widdle lakes.  Not on the mighty ocean.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, sometimes even on little lakes.  See
> attached
> > >
> > > Jim Connolly
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Steve
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:39 AM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>
> > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> > > cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> > >
> > > I don't know if you guys know this but If you
> have a
> > > motor on a fishing boat
> > > & its your main motor but it will not throttle
> down
> > > enough to move from one
> > > fishing hole to the next - You have the wrong
> motor
> > > on your
> > > boat:-)Especially when you would have a DC
> trolling
> > > motor in the water that
> > > you will have to pull up; go to the back of you
> boat
> > > & put the kicker in the
> > > water because your main motor doesn't idle.
> > > Hummmmmm, But on a bright note;
> > > this is the first time I have seen the 4 stroke
> > > justified like this.  There
> > > is an old sayings around here - Some folks have
> more
> > > Dollars than Sence.  If
> > > you are wanting to throw money away - then this
> make
> > > perfectly good sence.
> > > However, you may want to add a 3rd motor on the
> back
> > > of that boat for when
> > > both the 4 stroke break down:-)  It only money,
> and
> > > it not mine:-) Steve
> > >
> > >
>
> > > --- Jim Connolly <jbconnolly at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > Also, on my old Grady White I had a Yamaha 250
> v-6
> > > > 2- stroke.  Kicker was a
> > > > Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke for the very reason Russ
> > > Miller said.  Advantage
> > > > of mixing the two types of engine (in this
> case)
> > > was the 250 had
> > > > automatic oil mixing.  Fuel in tanks was not
> > > mixed, so the 9.9 ran off
> > > > the same fuel tanks as the 250.
> > > >
> > > > FWIW
> > > >
> > > > Jim Connolly
> > > > s/v Inisheer
> > > > 1985 recycled 2003
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Russell
> > > > Miller
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 6:22 PM
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs
> 4
> > > cycle smoke: ad
> > > > nauseam
> > > >
> > > > They need the smaller motor for troling, etc.
> The
> > > big one does not
> > > > throttle down enough.
> > > >
> > > > Russ
> > > > s/v Bulldog
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > > > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs
> 4
> > > cycle smoke: ad
> > > > nauseam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > One thing that I would add.  When you go to
> buy
> > > a
> > > > new motor; pop off
> > > > > the cover and ask yourself - What would I do
> if
> > > it
> > > > stop working far
> > > > > from shore?  Make you think!!!  FYI- Has
> > > everyone
> > > > seen these Big Bass
> > > > > Boats with those big 4 stroke motor - Have
> you
> > > > notice they all are
> > > > > carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> > > > > Kicker:-)  Wonder why???????????????
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Jim
> > > > > > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet
> > > standards;
> > > > how can you say
> > > > > > they will become a thing of the past?  I
> don't
> > > > know anyone that like
> > > > > > a 4 stroke who has brought one.  Their
> heavy
> > > and
>
> > > > most folks can work
> > > > > > on them themselfs.  When you are out on
> the
> > > > water & your motor goes
> > > > > > out; being able to work on it yourself is
> more
> > > > important than
> > > > > > polluting the air and/or water.
> > > > > > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat
> > > motors
> > > > are not the big
> > > > > > factor that pollute water.  That like
> saying
> > > > that smoking is the #1
> > > > > > health problem of people.  Everyone know
> that
> > > > being FAT is the #1
> > > > > > health problem.  2 stroke will not be done
> > > away
> > > > with except on small
> > > > > > bodies of water (that if the facts were
> known
> > > > are poluted by things
> > > > > > other that oil)  & Calaforia (where all
> the
> > > > crazy enviromentists
> > > > > > live).  The reasons most manufactors push
> 4
> > > > strokes are that they
> > > > > > get all the repair business.  Why fall
> into
> > > that
> > > > game.
> > > > > >  If you want to throw away your money;
> give it
> > > > to me; I'll make good
> > > > > > use of it and buy some Bourbon:-) Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
> > > > > > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one
> that
> > > no
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > in sailors circles,
> > > > > > >    but motorboat circles and generates
> > > > spirited
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > lively debate- it's
> > > > > > >    akin to arguing religion or politics.
> As
> > > a
> > > > > > former
> > > > > > > mechanic turned
> > > > > > >    biologist (marine), I work hand in
> hand
> > > > with outboards, and
> > > > > > > repair
> > > > > > >    shops at our facility each day. We
> > > probably
> > > > log more water time
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > >    the average individual (I would
> guess).
> > > > Here
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > some of the things
> > > > > > >    that I have become aware of over the
> past
> > > > > > several
> > > > > > > years:
> > > > > > >    1. Two stroke engines will very well
> soon
> > > > be a thing of the
> > > > > > > past.
> > > > > > >    Pressure at the federal level to
> reduce
> > > > > > emissions
> > > > > > > in the water, as
>
> > > > > > >    well as the air will cause the death
> of
> > > the
> > > > 2-stroke. Common
> > > > > > > sense
> > > > > > >    then tells us that it will become
> > > > increasingly difficult to
> > > > > > > obtain
> > > > > > >    parts for those out of manufacture
> > > engines.
> > > > Yes all engines
> > > > > > > pollute,
> > > > > > >    and modern two strokes pollute much
> less
> > > > than older ones. There
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > >    real fears out there like folks who
> mix
> > > > their
> > > > > > oil
> > > > > > > in the field (i.e.
> > > > > > >    in the parking lot or out on the
> water,
> > > and
> > > > > > spill
> > > > > > > directly, or older 2
> > > > > > >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by
> > > human
> > > > addition of the
> > > > > > > oil,
> > > > > > >    running around rich and smokey
> ("smoke
> > > > pots").....these are all
> > > > > > > well
> > > > > > >    founded fears that the regulators &
> and
> > > > environmentalists
> > > > > > > (especially)
> > > > > > >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2
> > > > stroke
>
> > > > > > >    2. Four stroke engines  are
> inherently
> > > > heavier than two strokes
> > > > > > > to a
> > > > > > >    certain point in horsepower rating
> (about
> > > > 90 or so), at which
> > > > > > > time the
> > > > > > >    weight becomes a non-issue. This
> makes a
> > > > great deal of
> > > > > > > difference to
> > > > > > >    the small engine/small boat owner,
> > > > especially ones like
> > > > > > >    us....Manufacturers are working on
> > > cutting
> > > > the weight of those
> > > > > > > smaller
> > > > > > >    engines though, and the gap is
> closing
> > > > there.
> > > > > > >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of
> > > > operation
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > a higher low end
> > > > > > >    torque which can be useful if you're
> > > > powering a boat that needs
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > >    "get out of the hole"
> quickly....usually
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > apply to sailcraft.
> > > > > > >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly
> > > closing
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > gap also.
> > > > > > >    4. According to our shops, four
> stroke
> > > > engines have fewer
>
> > > > > > > problems,
> > > > > > >    and see far less down time and many
> of
> > > our
> > > > > > former
> > > > > > > two stroke engine
> > > > > > >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators,
> and
> > > > especially sailboat
> > > > > > > owners are
> > > > > > >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this
> > > fact
> > > > as a major selling
> > > > > > > point.
> > > > > > >    However, when a four stroke breaks,
> it
> > > can
> > > > be a more costly
> > > > > > > repair
> > > > > > >    than a comparable two stroke, but
> again,
> > > > with design changes in
> > > > > > > both
> > > > > > >    engines, the gap narrows here
> too.....
> > > > > > >    In any event, our facility has now
> > > plunged
> > > > into the 4 stroke
> > > > > > > world
> > > > > > >    along with the tide of others. BTW I
> have
> > > a
> > > > > > 2002
> > > > > > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > > > > > >    auxiliary (notice the previous word)
> > > power
> > > > for
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > newly acquired
> > > > > > >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > > > > > >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > > > diatribe/dissertation...
>
> > > > > > >    JDWHITE
> > > > > > >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      Wally
> > > > > > >      I can't remember where I read the
> > > article
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > >      strokes meeting standards; one of
> my
> > > sail
> > > > mag
> > > > > > >      probably.  But I would think you
> are
> > > > right.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > >      smaller motors don't already; its
> just
> > > a
> > > > > > matter
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >      time.
> > > > > > >      Steve
> > > > > > >      --- Wally Buck
> <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >      > I had heard that the new cleaner
> 2
> > > > strokes were only
> > > > > > >      > coming out in the
> > > > > > >      > larger motors. Is this true? I
> got to
> > > > think that the
> > > > > > >      > technolgy will trickly
> > > > > > >      > down to the smaller motors as
> well
> > > but
> > > > you never
> > > > > > >      > know.....
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >      > Wally
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >      > >From: "Kroposki"
>
> > > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > > >      > >Reply-To:
> kroposki at innova.net,The
> > > > Rhodes
> > > > > > 22
> > > > > > > mail
> > > > > > >      > list
> > > > > > >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > > >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2
> > > cycle
> > > > vs
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > cycle
> > > > > > >      > smoke
> > > > > > >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21
> > > -0500
> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      > >Steve,
> > > > > > >      > >     The issue is that new 2
> cycle
> > > > engines
> > > > > > > are not
> > > > > > >      > smoke pots.  They
> > > > > > >      > >more than comply with the
> current
> > > > environmental
> > > > > > >      > standards and they will
> > > > > > >      > >comply with the new impending
> > > > standards.
> > > > > > >      > >     As for using oil, all gas
> > > motors
> > > > use
> > > > > > > oil and some
> > > > > > >      > of that
> > > > > > >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.
> The
> > > > issue
> > > > > > is
>
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > >      > much of that oil and gas
> > > > > > >      > >is wasted directly into the
> > > > environment.
> > > > > > > The old 2
> > > > > > >      > cycle engines did
> > > > > > >      > >not care.  However, the EPA
> > > standards
> > > > got the
> > > > > > >      > manufacturers attention
> > > > > > >      > >and the new engines do not
> > > > statistically pollute
> > > > > > >      > the environment more
> > > > > > >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also
> spew
> > > > pollutants.
> > > > > > >      > All gas engines
> > > > > > >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of
> degree.
> > > > When that
> > > > > > >      > degree is evaluated
> > > > > > >      > >statistically is the difference
> > > > > > significant?
> > > > > > >      > Simply put, will the
> > > > > > >      > >impact difference between the
> two
> > > > types of motors
> > > > > > >      > on the environment
> > > > > > >      > >really matter?  A few years ago
> the
> > > > answer was yes,
> > > > > > >      > however, with design
> > > > > > >      > >changes the effects are no
> longer
>
> > > > statistically
> > > > > > >      > significant.  They both
> > > > > > >      > >pollute.
> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      > >
>
> > >
> > > > Ed
> > > > > > K
> > > > > > >      > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >      > >From:
> > > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > > >      > Behalf Of Steve
> > > > > > >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12,
> 2004
> > > 9:01
> > > > AM
> > > > > > >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2
> cycle
> > > > vs 4 cycle
> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      > >I thought the reason they came
> out
> > > > with 4 strocks
> > > > > > >      > were
> > > > > > >      > >to satify the Non-smoking
> folks:-)
> > > You
> > > > > > know,
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > >      > have
> > > > > > >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant;
> and
> > > a
> > > > non-smoking
> > > > > > >      > >part.  You can now have a
> smoking
> > > part
> > > > of
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > lake; &
>
> > > > > > >      > a
> > > > > > >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the
> more
> > > > folks that go
> > > > > > >      > 4
> > > > > > >      > >stoke; that means the more folks
> > > that
> > > > can
> > > > > > go
> > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > >      > stoke.
> > > > > > >      > >And the enviroment only get
> poluted
> > > > the
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > amount
> > > > > > >      > >that we have always done for
> > > > > > years:-)Beside,
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > >      > need a
> > > > > > >      > >little more Globle warming.
> Temps
> > > > here
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need
> to
> > > > polute quite a
> > > > > > >      > bit
> > > > > > >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm
> up
> > > so
> > > > are winter
> > > > > > >      > stay
> > > > > > >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you
> > > > thinking,
> > > > > > >      > Michael:-)
> > > > > > >      > >Steve
> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > > > > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack
> for
> > > the
> > > > sessions
> > > > > > >      > version
> > > > > > >      > > > of the question, "So how much
> > > harm
> > > > are you
> > > > > > >      > willing
> > > > > > >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > > >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat,
> woman
> > > > miscarry,
> > > > > > >      > children
> > > > > > >      > > > born with birth defects, men
> > > going
> > > > impememnt,
> > > > > > >      > etc..
> > > > > > >      > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > > >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you
> beat
> > > > your
> > > > > > wife
> > > > > > > to day
> > > > > > >      > :-)
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > MJM
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >      > > > From: "Kroposki"
> > > > <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > > >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail
> list'"
> > > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> > > 2004
> > > > 9:12 AM
>
> > > > > > >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2
> cycle
> > > vs
> > > > 4 cycle
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > > >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know
> > > better
> > > > than question
> > > > > > >      > the
> > > > > > >      > > > technical
> > > > > > >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of
> > > Roger's
> > > > eloquent
> > > > > > >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > > >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by
> > > myself.
> > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > >      > forgets
> > > > > > >      > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > > >      > > > > two robust sons to help.
> It is
> > > > the
> > > > > > old
> > > > > > >      > problem of
> > > > > > >      > > > being able to see a
> > > > > > >      > > > > tree when you are in a
> forest.
> > > > > > >      > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >      > > > > From:
> > > > > > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
> > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > > > On
> > > > > > >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February
> 11,
> > > > 2004
> > > > > > 7:52
> > > > > > > AM
> > > > > > >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > >      > > > > Subject: Re:
> [Rhodes22-list]
> > > > Yamaha
> > > > > > 9.9
> > > > > > > Water
> > > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > Jay,
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > The usual problem with the
> > > water
> > > > pump
> > > > > > >      > impellors on
> > > > > > >      > > > small outboards is
> > > > > > >      > > > > that
> > > > > > >      > > > > they are made from some
> sort of
> > > > > > rubber.
> > > > > > >  It's
> > > > > > >      > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > > >      > > > > design.
> > > > > > >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up,
> the
> > > > > > rubber
> > > > > > > vanes
> > > > > > >      > on
> > > > > > >      > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > > >      > > > > water
>
> > > > > > >      > > > > pump housing, thus making
> the
> > > > pump
> > > > > > > positive
> > > > > > >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > > >      > > > > At
> > > > > > >      > > > > high speed, the rubber
> vanes
> > > > deflect
> > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > >      > the
> > > > > > >      > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > > >      > > > > boundary layer of water on
> the
> > > > wetted
> > > > > > > surface
> > > > > > >      > of
> > > > > > >      > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > > >      > > > > At
> > > > > > >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > >      > wear
> > > > > > >      > > > because they are not
> > > > > > >      > > > > touching the pump housing.
> > > This
> > > > > > design
> > > > > > > makes
> > > > > > >      > the
> > > > > > >      > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > > >      > > > > automatically switching
> from
> > > > positive
> > > > > > >      > displacement
> > > > > > >      > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > > >      > > > > mode
>
> > > > > > >      > > > > for delivering the high
> volume
> > > of cooling
> > > > > > >      > water
> > > > > > >      > > > required by high speed
> > > > > > >      > > > > operation.
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well,
> if
> > > the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > > pump
> > > > > > >      > ever
> > > > > > >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > > >      > > > > impellor will lose the
> > > > lubrication &
> > > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > >      > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > > >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself
> very
> > > quickly, like
> > > > > > >      > in a
> > > > > > >      > > > few seconds!
> > > > > > >      > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > > >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water
> > > (like
> > > > the
> > > > > > > oil film
> > > > > > >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > > >      > > > > outboards) will gradually
> break
> > > > down
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > >      > rubber
> > > > > > >      > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > > >      > > > > impellor; leading to
> > > > embrittlement,
>
> > > > > > > cracking,
> > > > > > >      > and
> > > > > > >      > > > failure.  This is
> > > > > > >      > > > > probably
> > > > > > >      > > > > the single biggest
> long-term
> > > > failure
> > > > > > >      > mechanism.
> > > > > > >      > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > > >      > > > > be
> > > > > > >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4
> > > years
> > > > due
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > >      > cause
> > > > > > >      > > > alone.  There is also
> > > > > > >      > > > > another common failure
> > > mechanism related to
> > > > > > >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
> > > > > > >      > > > > is
> > > > > > >      > > > > lifted free of the water,
> the
> > > > entire
> > > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > >      > > > system drains down.  This
> > > > > > >      > > > > is
> > > > > > >      > > > > why the water pump needs to
> be
> > > self-priming at
> > > > > > >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
> > > > > > >      > > > > water &
> > > > > > >      > > > > especially ocean water, has
> a
> > > > certain
> > > > > > > amount
> > > > > > >      > of
>
> > > > > > >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > > >      > > > > in
> > > > > > >      > > > > it.  When the cooling
> system
> > > > drains
> > > > > > > down, a
> > > > > > >      > small
> > > > > > >      > > > amount of water is
> > > > > > >      > > > > left
> > > > > > >      > > > > trapped in between the ends
> of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > vanes on
> > > > > > >      > the
> > > > > > >      > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > > >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.
> When
> > > this
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > >      > eventually
> > > > > > >      > > > evaporates in
> > > > > > >      > > > > storage,
> > > > > > >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be
> > > bonded
> > > > by
> > > > > > > salt
> > > > > > >      > crystals
> > > > > > >      > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > > >      > > > > Depending upon how strong
> this
> > > > bond
> > > > > > is,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > >      > rubber
> > > > > > >      > > > impellor can be
> > > > > > >      > > > > damaged
> > > > > > >      > > > > the next time the engine is
> > > > started
>
> > > > > > > when the
> > > > > > >      > vanes
> > > > > > >      > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > > >      > > > > salt crystals.  In
> addition,
> > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > 1st few
> > > > > > >      > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > > >      > > > > before
> > > > > > >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve,
> > > they
> > > > form
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >      > relatively
> > > > > > >      > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > > >      > > > > water pump housing that the
> > > > rubber
> > > > > > > vanes have
> > > > > > >      > to
> > > > > > >      > > > run over on every
> > > > > > >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there
> can
> > > > be
> > > > > > > corrosion
> > > > > > >      > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > > >      > > > > crystals
> > > > > > >      > > > > in long-term contact with
> the
> > > > > > aluminum
> > > > > > > pump
> > > > > > >      > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > > >      > > > > In
> > > > > > >      > > > > salt water, it's considered
> > > good practice to
> > > > > > >      > fresh
>
> > > > > > >      > > > water flush the
> > > > > > >      > > > > cooling
> > > > > > >      > > > > system after every use &
> > > > certainly
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > >      > > > long-term storage.  After
> > > > > > >      > > > > long-term storage, it
> wouldn't
> > > > hurt
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > fresh
> > > > > > >      > water
> > > > > > >      > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > > >      > > > > system
> > > > > > >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part
> of
> > > my outboard
> > > > > > >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > > >      > > > > flush
> > > > > > >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable
> > > > antifreeze
> > > > > > (RV
> > > > > > > "red
> > > > > > >      > pop")
> > > > > > >      > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > > >      > > > > systems
> > > > > > >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene
> > > > glycol
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > >      > prevent
> > > > > > >      > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > > >      > > > > crystals in-between the
> vanes
> > > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > water
> > > > > > >      > pump
>
> > > > > > >      > > > housing.  During the
> > > > > > >      > > > > boating season, on every
> > > > start-up, I
> > > > > > > gently
> > > > > > >      > pull
> > > > > > >      > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > > >      > > > > the
> > > > > > >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting
> it
> > > to
> > > > > > break
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > >      > water
> > > > > > >      > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > > >      > > > > give
> > > > > > >      > > > > the engine several minutes
> of
> > > low
> > > > > > speed
> > > > > > >      > warm-up.
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > The result, the only water
> pump
> > > > I've
> > > > > > > ever had
> > > > > > >      > fail
> > > > > > >      > > > on any of my
> > > > > > >      > > > > outboards in
> > > > > > >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was
> the
> > > time
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > >      > younger
> > > > > > >      > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > > >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda
> 9.9 hp
> > > outboard up on
> > > > > > >      > the
> > > > > > >      > > > beach with the engine
>
> > > > > > >      > > > > at
> > > > > > >      > > > > full throttle.  The water
> pump
> > > > > > impellor
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > >      > burnt
> > > > > > >      > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > >      > > > > ----- Original Message
> -----
> > > > > > >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > > > > >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail
> list"
> > > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February
> 11,
> > > > 2004
> > > > > > 2:25
> > > > > > > AM
> > > > > > >      > > > > Subject: Re:
> [Rhodes22-list]
> > > > Yamaha
> > > > > > 9.9
> > > > > > > Water
> > > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and
> make
> > > > work,
> > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > >      > the
>
> > > > > > >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > > >      > > > > but
> > > > > > >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you
> are
> > > > only
> > > > > > > putting
> > > > > > >      > 25-50
> > > > > > >      > > > hours on
> > > > > > >      > > > > > the motor every year, one
> > > thing
> > > > you
> > > > > > > do have
> > > > > > >      > to
> > > > > > >      > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > > >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the
> > > pelages,
> > > > > > clean
> > > > > > > the pee
> > > > > > >      > tub
> > > > > > >      > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > >      > > > > > one of the few parts on
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > that is
> > > > > > >      > not
> > > > > > >      > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > > >      > > > > get
> > > > > > >      > > > > it and they need to be
> replace
> > > > every
> > > > > > > two
> > > > > > >      > years,
> > > > > > >      > > > luckily it
> > > > > > >      > > > > > is also a simple job that
> you
> > > > can
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > >      > yourself.
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >      > > > > > ----- Original Message
> -----
> > > > > > >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > > > > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail
> list"
> > > > > > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February
> 10,
> > > > 2004
> > > > > > > 11:25 AM
> > > > > > >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list]
> > > Yamaha
> > > > 9.9
> > > > > > > Water
> > > > > > >      > Pump
> > > > > > >      > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says
> Yam
> > > recommends
> > > > > > >      > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > > >      > > > > assembly
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > every year. The motor
> is
> > > 2001
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > >      > the
> > > > > > >      > > > first year in service.
> > > > > > >      > > > > I'm
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10
> months,
> > > occasionally
> > > > > > >      > flush
>
> > > > > > >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > month), and end of
> season
> > > run
> > > > it
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > >      > barrel
> > > > > > >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off
> > > > deposits,
> > > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best
> > > > suggestions on
> > > > > > >      > proceeding
> > > > > > >      > > > with this replacement
> > > > > > >      > > > > or
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > any other winter
> routine?
> > > > > > >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > > >      > > > > > > Use
> > > > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > > > Help?
> > > > > > >      > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      >
>
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > > >      > > > > > Use
> > > Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > > > Help?
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> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      > > > >
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > > >      > > > > Use
> Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > > Help?
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> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
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> > > > > > >      > > >
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > > >      > > > Use
> Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
>
> > > > Help?
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> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      > >
> > > > > > >      >
> >__________________________________
> > > > > > >      > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > >      > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund
> fast
> > > > by
> > > > > > > filing
> > > > > > >      > online.
> > > > > > >      >
> > > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> > > > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > >      > Keep up with high-tech trends
> here at
> > > > > > "Hook'd
>
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > >      > Technology."
> > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:33:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad
	nauseam
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <20040218213324.8973.qmail at web14901.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dammmmmmmmmm, Rummy.  I have heard about it but have
never seen it. I would have laugh my ass off:-)  Those
guys are just crazy not to mention being a real PINA.
Excellent story; I bet they did crap their pants:-) It
always grips me when were racing & it a low wind days
(less that 4 mph wind) and we're barely able to keep
the boat going forward and one of them shoot right
thur the middle of the fleet - sail go to slapping,
boat turns sideways.  They don't know much about
seamanship.
Steve


--- R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
> Steve,
> You are absolutely correct about the instability of
> the Bass Boats. My wife
> and I had the luxury of being out on our Hobie 16
> one windless afternoon and we
> were getting bounced around pretty good by the large
> three foot rollers
> coming off of passing cruisers plowing thru the
> water. Sure enough, along comes one
> of those bass herders in a hurry to get to the
> perfect spot. One of my gripes
> about these guys is that few, if any, have any
> experience with a boat prior
> to owning their bats out of hell boats. Anywho, this
> guy and his partner hit
> one of these wakes broadside. The bass boat rolled
> up the wave and went
> completely over. A perfect barrel roll. Landed right
> side up. Nothing fell out of the
> boat, not even the fisherman. It happened so fast we
> couldn't believe what we
> had just seen. Those two sat there for a long time.
> No doubt cleaning out
> their shorts. When they left, it was at a
> considerably slower speed.
>
> Rummy
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End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 410, Issue 2
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