[Rhodes22-list] back to Gennys ....Bullshit.

[Peter Thorn]

Wally,

I think it's great that you are enjoying racing, and have learned you can
PHRF race with bigger boats and beat them.  Go Wally!

As for the genny selection, I'm with Steve on this... get the 155.  It makes
a great deal of sense NOT to penalize yourself to start with a worse (lower)
rating just because of the perceived benefit a bigger sail implies, but
really only comes into play in light air conditions.  Around here (lake
sailing; no seabreeze), the best racing is in the winter anyway, where the
155 would be preferable for winter's fresh breezes. You can probably furl a
155 down to about a 110 with a tapered luff pad and have a little sail shape
left to race with.  Also, a 155 is still considered a "light air" sail.

Another important consideration is clew height.  A higher clewed headsail
furls easier and gives you move visibility under the foot to view the
crossing approaching traffic, so you would not need a window.  Many
racer/cruisers seem to like these features.  However, due to geometry, a
higher clewed 155 would extend much farther aft than a decksweeper 155.
Also, with a decksweeper I've heard talk about "end plate" effect with the
wind on the deck.  Plus the sail's center of effort is lower and more
forward so it's easier to hold down..  I just mention these points to you so
you can have a good discussion with your sailmaker.

My 84 R22, the Phoenix, is on shoring supports in the yard patiently waiting
for her "make-over".  It will probably be two years before she is ready to
launch, with other work and sailing distractions in my que ahead of her.
Just for the record, on the trip to NC, the Phoenix weighed in at 3,300
pounds at a highway truck scale.   Seems heavy for an old boat, don't you
think?

Fair winds,

PT






> Bill,
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to test sail
> before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.
>
> I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows that a
> boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race committee
> penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175 can be
a
> faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of true wind.
> That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for the best
> sail for about 8 - 12.
>
> I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed when
pleasure
> sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind speed
> when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying to use
the
> VMG features.
>
> Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I don't think
my
> boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier posts
did
> not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to furl
main
> and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small it seems
> like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I might as
> well just furl all of the way.
>
> PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with about 10
> -15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)
>
> Wally
>
>
> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
> >
> >Roger,
> >
> >I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people often
> >overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
> >
> >The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats and
> >conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have IMF,
> >your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is
> >considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you do
> >not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in conditions
> >where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady,
> >non-gusting wind.
> >
> >"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different
factors
> >could be involved.
> >
> >I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my experience
it
> >is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the
power
> >on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the boat
> >sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky" coming
> >out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't
another
> >boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like
> >mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort,
completely
> >under control.
> >
> >I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail
size
> >instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set an
> >interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can
reverse
> >the tack and sail all the way home.
> >
> >If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not necessarily
> >recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I
would.
> >  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the boat
a
> >faster boat.
> >
> >Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water, either.
> >They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster when
you
> >are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail
upright,
> >and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright than
> >heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
> >
> >Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny outside
the
> >shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125
fully
> >extended genny inside the shrouds.
> >
> >If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside
> >shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
> >substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the
purpose.
> >
> >Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main point:
> >because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget
that
> >there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I
don't
> >have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me when
I
> >see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others into
> >accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other
> >members of the list.
> >
> >Bill Effros
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Roger Pihlaja
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> >
> >
> >Rummy,
> >
> >It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The force
> >available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
> >[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg
with
> >the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind beat
&
> >yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20 knots?
> >This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand up
> >against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling force
> >that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The more
> >likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a
hand
> >held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again, get
> >yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.  We
> >can
> >argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal
examples
> >over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
> >overestimating the wind speed.
> >
> >Roger Pihlaja
> >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
> >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> >
> >
> > > Dear Roger,
> > > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing.
Until
> >then,
> > > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You bring
> >the
> > > rum.
> > >
> > > Rummy
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> >__________________________________________________
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>
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