Weight Re: [Rhodes22-list] back to Gennys ....Bullshit.

[Mary Lou Troy]

Pete - was there anything else on board when you weighed Phoenix? I assume 
you subtracted the trailer weight.  3300 is 400 over the published weight - 
though I'm not sure there was ever an R22 that weighed 2900 lbs. Maybe 
without the mast? We've never weighed Fretless but she's a '91 so we've 
always figured she was on the heavy side though perhaps not as heavy as the 
boats with the permanent head, holding tank and head enclosure.

Mary Lou

At 08:04 AM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Wally,
>
>I think it's great that you are enjoying racing, and have learned you can
>PHRF race with bigger boats and beat them.  Go Wally!
>
>As for the genny selection, I'm with Steve on this... get the 155.  It makes
>a great deal of sense NOT to penalize yourself to start with a worse (lower)
>rating just because of the perceived benefit a bigger sail implies, but
>really only comes into play in light air conditions.  Around here (lake
>sailing; no seabreeze), the best racing is in the winter anyway, where the
>155 would be preferable for winter's fresh breezes. You can probably furl a
>155 down to about a 110 with a tapered luff pad and have a little sail shape
>left to race with.  Also, a 155 is still considered a "light air" sail.
>
>Another important consideration is clew height.  A higher clewed headsail
>furls easier and gives you move visibility under the foot to view the
>crossing approaching traffic, so you would not need a window.  Many
>racer/cruisers seem to like these features.  However, due to geometry, a
>higher clewed 155 would extend much farther aft than a decksweeper 155.
>Also, with a decksweeper I've heard talk about "end plate" effect with the
>wind on the deck.  Plus the sail's center of effort is lower and more
>forward so it's easier to hold down..  I just mention these points to you so
>you can have a good discussion with your sailmaker.
>
>My 84 R22, the Phoenix, is on shoring supports in the yard patiently waiting
>for her "make-over".  It will probably be two years before she is ready to
>launch, with other work and sailing distractions in my que ahead of her.
>Just for the record, on the trip to NC, the Phoenix weighed in at 3,300
>pounds at a highway truck scale.   Seems heavy for an old boat, don't you
>think?
>
>Fair winds,
>
>PT
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to test sail
> > before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.
> >
> > I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows that a
> > boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race committee
> > penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175 can be
>a
> > faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of true wind.
> > That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for the best
> > sail for about 8 - 12.
> >
> > I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed when
>pleasure
> > sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind speed
> > when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying to use
>the
> > VMG features.
> >
> > Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I don't think
>my
> > boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier posts
>did
> > not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to furl
>main
> > and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small it seems
> > like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I might as
> > well just furl all of the way.
> >
> > PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with about 10
> > -15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> > >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
> > >
> > >Roger,
> > >
> > >I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people often
> > >overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
> > >
> > >The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats and
> > >conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have IMF,
> > >your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is
> > >considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you do
> > >not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in conditions
> > >where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady,
> > >non-gusting wind.
> > >
> > >"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different
>factors
> > >could be involved.
> > >
> > >I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my experience
>it
> > >is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the
>power
> > >on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the boat
> > >sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky" coming
> > >out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't
>another
> > >boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like
> > >mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort,
>completely
> > >under control.
> > >
> > >I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail
>size
> > >instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set an
> > >interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can
>reverse
> > >the tack and sail all the way home.
> > >
> > >If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not necessarily
> > >recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I
>would.
> > >  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the boat
>a
> > >faster boat.
> > >
> > >Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water, either.
> > >They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster when
>you
> > >are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail
>upright,
> > >and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright than
> > >heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
> > >
> > >Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny outside
>the
> > >shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125
>fully
> > >extended genny inside the shrouds.
> > >
> > >If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside
> > >shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
> > >substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the
>purpose.
> > >
> > >Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main point:
> > >because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget
>that
> > >there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I
>don't
> > >have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me when
>I
> > >see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others into
> > >accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other
> > >members of the list.
> > >
> > >Bill Effros
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Roger Pihlaja
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > >
> > >
> > >Rummy,
> > >
> > >It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The force
> > >available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
> > >[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg
>with
> > >the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind beat
>&
> > >yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20 knots?
> > >This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand up
> > >against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling force
> > >that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The more
> > >likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a
>hand
> > >held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again, get
> > >yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.  We
> > >can
> > >argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal
>examples
> > >over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
> > >overestimating the wind speed.
> > >
> > >Roger Pihlaja
> > >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
> > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Roger,
> > > > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing.
>Until
> > >then,
> > > > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You bring
> > >the
> > > > rum.
> > > >
> > > > Rummy
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
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> >
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