[Rhodes22-list] boat weight

Sun Mar 14 12:14:07 EST 2004

Hi Mary Lou!

Phoenix was weighed at the I-95 truck scales near the South Carolina/Georgia
border last October.  By subtracting the known weight of tow vehicle and
trailer, something like 3 tons,  and allowing 250 pounds for mast, boom,
cushions, sails, rigging, rotten particle board in the cabin, and for the
tropical frog in the lazarette that hasn't been found yet, she's about
3,300.  I admit and hope, this boat weight estimate could be high.

The first major Phoenix project is a bottom restoration and reinstallation
of the new CB.  Come to think of it, after we remove the approximate 10
coats of heavy metal bottom paint accumulated since 1984, that should reduce
some weight too!  When that is complete, the plan is to get her back on the
trailer, after taking a very accurate tare of the truck and Triad, and to
the Chapel Hill landfill scales to determine a true "bare boat" weight.
I'll let you all know these more accurate results then... but please don't
hold your breath waiting.

In real cruising life, I don't think 10-15% variances in boat weight matter
much.  If it were not relatively easy for me the determine Phoenix's weight,
I probably wouldn't bother.  As you know, many of us, especially me, are
obsessed with our boats and messing around with them, so these facts become
interesting.  Best regards to you and Fred.

Fair winds,

PT

> Pete - was there anything else on board when you weighed Phoenix? I assume
> you subtracted the trailer weight.  3300 is 400 over the published
weight -
> though I'm not sure there was ever an R22 that weighed 2900 lbs. Maybe
> without the mast? We've never weighed Fretless but she's a '91 so we've
> always figured she was on the heavy side though perhaps not as heavy as
the
> boats with the permanent head, holding tank and head enclosure.
>
> Mary Lou
>
> At 08:04 AM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Wally,
> >
> >I think it's great that you are enjoying racing, and have learned you can
> >PHRF race with bigger boats and beat them.  Go Wally!
> >
> >As for the genny selection, I'm with Steve on this... get the 155.  It
makes
> >a great deal of sense NOT to penalize yourself to start with a worse
(lower)
> >rating just because of the perceived benefit a bigger sail implies, but
> >really only comes into play in light air conditions.  Around here (lake
> >sailing; no seabreeze), the best racing is in the winter anyway, where
the
> >155 would be preferable for winter's fresh breezes. You can probably furl
a
> >155 down to about a 110 with a tapered luff pad and have a little sail
shape
> >left to race with.  Also, a 155 is still considered a "light air" sail.
> >
> >Another important consideration is clew height.  A higher clewed headsail
> >furls easier and gives you move visibility under the foot to view the
> >crossing approaching traffic, so you would not need a window.  Many
> >racer/cruisers seem to like these features.  However, due to geometry, a
> >higher clewed 155 would extend much farther aft than a decksweeper 155.
> >Also, with a decksweeper I've heard talk about "end plate" effect with
the
> >wind on the deck.  Plus the sail's center of effort is lower and more
> >forward so it's easier to hold down..  I just mention these points to you
so
> >you can have a good discussion with your sailmaker.
> >
> >My 84 R22, the Phoenix, is on shoring supports in the yard patiently
waiting
> >for her "make-over".  It will probably be two years before she is ready
to
> >launch, with other work and sailing distractions in my que ahead of her.
> >Just for the record, on the trip to NC, the Phoenix weighed in at 3,300
> >pounds at a highway truck scale.   Seems heavy for an old boat, don't you
> >think?
> >
> >Fair winds,
> >
> >PT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to test
sail
> > > before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.
> > >
> > > I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows that
a
> > > boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race
committee
> > > penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175 can
be
> >a
> > > faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of true
wind.
> > > That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for the
best
> > > sail for about 8 - 12.
> > >
> > > I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed when
> >pleasure
> > > sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind
speed
> > > when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying to
use
> >the
> > > VMG features.
> > >
> > > Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I don't
think
> >my
> > > boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier
posts
> >did
> > > not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to furl
> >main
> > > and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small it
seems
> > > like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I might
as
> > > well just furl all of the way.
> > >
> > > PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with
about 10
> > > -15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Roger,
> > > >
> > > >I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people
often
> > > >overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
> > > >
> > > >The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats
and
> > > >conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have
IMF,
> > > >your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is
> > > >considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you
do
> > > >not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in
conditions
> > > >where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady,
> > > >non-gusting wind.
> > > >
> > > >"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different
> >factors
> > > >could be involved.
> > > >
> > > >I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my
experience
> >it
> > > >is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the
> >power
> > > >on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the
boat
> > > >sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky"
coming
> > > >out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't
> >another
> > > >boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like
> > > >mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort,
> >completely
> > > >under control.
> > > >
> > > >I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail
> >size
> > > >instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set
an
> > > >interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can
> >reverse
> > > >the tack and sail all the way home.
> > > >
> > > >If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not
necessarily
> > > >recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I
> >would.
> > > >  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the
boat
> >a
> > > >faster boat.
> > > >
> > > >Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water,
either.
> > > >They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster
when
> >you
> > > >are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail
> >upright,
> > > >and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright
than
> > > >heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
> > > >
> > > >Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny
outside
> >the
> > > >shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125
> >fully
> > > >extended genny inside the shrouds.
> > > >
> > > >If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside
> > > >shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
> > > >substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the
> >purpose.
> > > >
> > > >Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main
point:
> > > >because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget
> >that
> > > >there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I
> >don't
> > > >have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me
when
> >I
> > > >see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others
into
> > > >accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other
> > > >members of the list.
> > > >
> > > >Bill Effros
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Rummy,
> > > >
> > > >It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The
force
> > > >available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
> > > >[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg
> >with
> > > >the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind
beat
> >&
> > > >yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20
knots?
> > > >This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand
up
> > > >against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling
force
> > > >that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The
more
> > > >likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a
> >hand
> > > >held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again,
get
> > > >yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.
We
> > > >can
> > > >argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal
> >examples
> > > >over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
> > > >overestimating the wind speed.
> > > >
> > > >Roger Pihlaja
> > > >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
> > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Roger,
> > > > > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing.
> >Until
> > > >then,
> > > > > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You
bring
> > > >the
> > > > > rum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rummy
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________________________
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> > >
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