[Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit

Sun Mar 14 16:12:19 EST 2004

Wally,

The Rhodes 22 has gotten heavier over the years.  The early models, like
mine, were built by a variety of subcontract boat yards.  Stan wasn't
satisfied with the inconsistent quality from some of these subcontractors &
eventually brought the whole operation in house.  I think this was around
1980 & the boats immediately became a little heavier due to thicker lay-up
schedules & just generally reinforcing things that had proven to be
undersized.  Since then, the boats have gotten steadily heavier due to
adding more stuff, for example:

Sliding doors on the cabinets behind the sink vs. open bins
Marine head + holding tank vs. porta-potti
Fully enclosed wooden head compartment bulkheads & hinged doors vs. curtains
Tiled cabin sole
Electric motor lifts vs. manual
IMF mainsail vs. standard mainsail
More electronics
So on & so forth

I'm not prepared to argue the additional weight or merits of each of these
pieces of gear or production standard changes except to say; that, without
exception, they all added weight.  In addition, most of this additional mass
was located up relatively high in the boat, which negatively impacted
stability and heeling.

Wally, I don't know exactly how your boat was originally equipped &/or how
you or previous owners may have changed it since it was new.

The Rhodes 22 is very sensitive to fore/aft trim as well as side-to-side
trim.  When I remodeled my galley in 1987, adding the 2-burner LP gas stove,
I also moved my battery from its original location under the starboard side
cockpit seat to up under the V-berth on the port side beside the water tank.
This shifting of the battery's mass restored fore/aft & side-to-side trim
based upon adding the mass of the stove in the starboard side galley.  In
flat water (& thus also in light air), I have found a slight bow-down trim
condition is slightly faster than level on the water line & significantly
faster than a slight bow-up trim condition.  In the slight bow-down trim,
there is slightly less lee helm when heeled over, the boat points a couple
of degrees higher, the waterline length is slightly longer, there is less
turbulence being shed off the transom, & less drag from the hull underbody
beneath the cockpit area.  The most common cause of a bow-up trim condition
is overloading the stern lazarette compartment.  Because the stern lazarette
compartment is enormous and at the extreme end of the boat, you must be
careful what you store in it.

But, in any kind of waves or chop, a bow-down trim condition can be
detrimental or even dangerous.  Trimmed bow-down, the Rhodes 22 may not have
sufficient reserve floatation at the bow to punch thru waves & chop.  The
bow tends to plow into a wave vs. riding up & over.  This can stop the
boat's progress to windward dead in its tracks & result in a dramatic
reduction in the boat's pointing ability.  I tend to store light bulky stuff
in the lazarette compartment like sails, lines, sea anchor, sleeping bags,
clothing, etc.  For choppy conditions, try for a fore/aft trim as close to
level on the water line as possible.  A bow-up trim condition is always to
be avoided.  If you have the stern rail "captain's chairs", avoid sitting in
them when you are concerned about pointing ability to windward or sailing
speed.

As far as the choice of a 175% genoa vs. a 150% vs. 135% vs. ?%; it all
depends upon the prevailing sailing conditions where you sail at the time of
year & day when you do most of your sailing.  The lighter the dominent
prevailing conditions, the larger ?% you should go with your new genoa.  If
you want to race your Rhodes 22; then, get a 150% genoa because of the
penalties associated with other sizes.  If you do get a deck sweeping 175%
genoa, just realise that huge sail can be a real bear to tack on a light air
day.  It's easy to get it hung up on the foredeck, resulting in getting
caught in irons.

If you have a roller furler which permits headsail changes without lowering
the mast; then, the 1st genoa you should get is a 150%.  Later, when you get
a 175% genoa, get the sail shape fullness cut for lighter air & built of
lighter sailcloth.  You will find this "175% lite" genoa will work much
better in light air than the OEM standard 175% genoa, which is a compomised
cut for both light & heavy air & is built of much heavier sailcloth to
withstand heavy air use.

Wally, I hope this helps.  I have to go study for my 2nd exam in ME451,
Machine Design now.  That class is like a combination of everything we
learned in Statics, Dynamics, Engineering Materials, & Engineering Mechanics
all happening at the same time.  I got a 90% on the 1st exam, which was the
2nd highest grade in the class.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit

> Roger,
>
> Didn't bother me, I have to admit I was thinking the same thing
> ......remember I am the one who said I furl main (lower boom as well) and
my
> 125 in 20 plus. I have myself and any crew on the rail. Your earlier post
> regarding different wind speeds and sail plans made sense to me.
>
> I am curious about one of your comments. What is on my boat that would
make
> it so much heavier than yours? I suspect my 84 may weigh the same or less
> than yours but I don't know. Do the older ones have less ballast or less
> fiber glass? I know the IMF mast adds weight and all of it up high so this
> would add weight to mine and certainly increase heeling to an extent. Are
> there other construction differences between an 84 and 70s model.
>
> I suspect you might carry more gear than me. My tool box consists of spare
> fuses,spark plug socket, spare plugs, vise grips, a couple of pliers,
mulit
> use screw driver, 2 real screw drivers, some cotter pins, multimeter,
spare
> wire, various electrical fittings and sail tape. I only carry one small
> anchor, don't have water in the tank, and usually none in the porta potti.
> If you look behind my sliding mirror cabinets you will see empty space.
> Nothing is stored on the little shelf over the galley either. I keep a
> little cooking stuff under the sink but not much ( one small pan). Nothing
> is stored in the v-birth other than spinnaker and bag with rain gear. I do
> have two Group 24 batteries, 2 spotlights, flashlight, and a charger. I do
> not have any solar panels. My laz has 8X10 tarp, extra line of various
> sizes. life jackets, a bucket, bailing pump, and some cleaning supplies. I
> have no wind vane, knot meter or depth gauge. I use a hand held radio and
> have a small stereo. I carry atmost 3 gallons of gas and my outboard
weighs
> about 50 pounds. I almost forgot, I do carry some liquid ballast in a
cooler
> that I lighten as the day goes on. :-) I also have no bimini.
>
> Now when things warm up and we start over nighting my boat get a little
> heavier. The bedding stays on. I also fill up water tank with about 5
> gallons or so and add water to the porta potti.  I also add a 50 pound
> inflatable kayak and various other gear.
>
> One of these days I just need to get the whole rig weighed.
>
> Now today it is supposed to be blowing near 20 with 30% chance of rain. So
> it is back to the lake.
>
> Wallly
>
>
>
> >From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] New Genny - Was Bullshit
> >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:52:55 -0500
> >
> >Rummy, Wally, et al...
> >
> >If I offended any of you with the bullshit comment my previous post;
then,
> >I apologise.
> >
> >It is my understanding that GBI upgraded the standard genoa size from
150%
> >to 175% at around the same time as the IMF mainsail & the luxurious (but
> >heavy) cabin interiors became available.  The older Rhodes 22's, like
> >Dynamic Equilibrium, my 1976 model, have always been at their best in
light
> >to moderate wind speeds (0 - 15 knots).  As the boat's weight increased
and
> >the mainsail area decreased & became less efficient with the IMF
mainsail,
> >the increase in genoa size was an attempt by GBI to maintain some sort of
> >light air performance parity with the older models.  However, if
anything,
> >it would be expected the 175% genoa would need to start furling at lower
> >wind speeds than the older models; not greater as some of you are
claiming.
> >
> >The Rhodes 22 is a remarkable little boat.  I really enjoy sailing and
> >cruising on Dynamic Equilibrium in all kinds of weather.  But, let's not
> >let our enthusiam for the product prevent us from keeping this discussion
> >grounded in reality.  There isn't a trailerable sailboat made that can
> >carry full sail area upwind in 20 knots and certainly not at the
> >[Sail Area] / [Displacement] ratio of the Rhodes 22.  Any trailerable
> >sailboat so undercanvased; that, it could carry full sail area upwind in
20
> >knots, wouldn't be able to get out of its own way in light air.
Gentlemen,
> >what you are claiming is physically impossible, a violation of several
laws
> >of physics and aerodynamics.
> >
> >Roger Pihlaja
> >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >__________________________________________________
> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
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