[Rhodes22-list] boat weight and lifting

Todd Tavares sprocket80 at mail.com
Sun Mar 14 21:10:42 EST 2004 

Peter,

   There was no damage to the boat at all.  She went over in slow motion without a sound...not so much as a creak or groan.  If I was looking the other way, I would never had know she went over.  The bow was about 4 ft from the bow stop roller, so she was almost 2/3 on the trailer.  Luckily my trailer in a home built, and the bunk support angles are bolted and not welded.  The bunk swiveled as she slid and rolled, matching the shape of the side of the hull.

  When I was rolling the trailer under, I was in too much of a hurry.  The trailer looked like it was going under centered but slightly off line with the boat.  I underestimated how much the tail of the trailer would swing as I pushed the tongue over, as well as how much torque I could apply with a 20 ft lever arm  :^( 

  I have two R22's now....and was actually putting the trailer under the one I want to keep. Now I have to figure out what to do with the 74 hull.  


Todd

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:30:33 -0500
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] boat weight and lifting

> Todd,
> 
> Phoenix is off the trailer to allow some "minor punchlist work" to the
> trailer, and more importantly, to give much easier access to the bottom for
> the restoration work that's planned.   We're going to use an 80 grit 2x16
> air sander down to bare gelcoat, then apply an epoxy bottom. In case there
> are any gov't inspectors on this list, we have all the PPE required (air
> feed head hood, Tyvek suits).   If the trailer were not removed, all that
> close contact would be even more uncomfortable.  She is resting keel 16" off
> the ground on two concrete blocks, with steel shoring supports chained
> together fore and aft - pretty solid.
> 
> Todd, your weekend experience sounds like a nightmare, although I suppose
> it's wonderful no one was hurt.   Is the boat OK?    Once I loaded the
> Starwind on the trailer wrong (not quite your 30 degrees) and got a 4" bunk
> dent in the hull.   Fortunately, after relaunching and proper loading the
> dent popped right back smooth.  Fiberglass is incredibly strong.
> 
> PT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Peter,
> >
> >    This is probably answered in a previous post,  but why is the boat off
> of the trailer?
> >  I had the opportunity...or should I say task...this weekend of putting my
> boat up on blocking and taking the trailer out from under it.  Going back
> under with the trailer,  I knocked the boat off of the blocks and she
> rolled, resting on the trailer in about a 30 degree "heel".   The starboard
> bunk was almost under the rail, and the port side bunk was an inch from the
> keel.  My brother-in-law joked that I was dry sailing for sure.
> >
> >   I jacked and blocked the bow, and using my A-frame and two chain falls,
> picked the stern using the two eyes on the transom to raise and level the
> boat.  I was skeptical that the eyes would hold.   I thought I had read here
> on the list some time ago someone called them lifting eyes and said Stan
> picks the boats by the stern and bow eyes in the factory, but I didn't have
> the time to go online and research the archives.  I doubt I'll ever do that
> again, but they were rock solid.  I was amazed!!  And my hat is off to Stan!
> >
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
> > Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:07 -0500
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] boat weight
> >
> > > Hi Mary Lou!
> > >
> > > Phoenix was weighed at the I-95 truck scales near the South
> Carolina/Georgia
> > > border last October.  By subtracting the known weight of tow vehicle and
> > > trailer, something like 3 tons,  and allowing 250 pounds for mast, boom,
> > > cushions, sails, rigging, rotten particle board in the cabin, and for
> the
> > > tropical frog in the lazarette that hasn't been found yet, she's about
> > > 3,300.  I admit and hope, this boat weight estimate could be high.
> > >
> > > The first major Phoenix project is a bottom restoration and
> reinstallation
> > > of the new CB.  Come to think of it, after we remove the approximate 10
> > > coats of heavy metal bottom paint accumulated since 1984, that should
> reduce
> > > some weight too!  When that is complete, the plan is to get her back on
> the
> > > trailer, after taking a very accurate tare of the truck and Triad, and
> to
> > > the Chapel Hill landfill scales to determine a true "bare boat" weight.
> > > I'll let you all know these more accurate results then... but please
> don't
> > > hold your breath waiting.
> > >
> > > In real cruising life, I don't think 10-15% variances in boat weight
> matter
> > > much.  If it were not relatively easy for me the determine Phoenix's
> weight,
> > > I probably wouldn't bother.  As you know, many of us, especially me, are
> > > obsessed with our boats and messing around with them, so these facts
> become
> > > interesting.  Best regards to you and Fred.
> > >
> > > Fair winds,
> > >
> > > PT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Pete - was there anything else on board when you weighed Phoenix? I
> assume
> > > > you subtracted the trailer weight.  3300 is 400 over the published
> > > weight -
> > > > though I'm not sure there was ever an R22 that weighed 2900 lbs. Maybe
> > > > without the mast? We've never weighed Fretless but she's a '91 so
> we've
> > > > always figured she was on the heavy side though perhaps not as heavy
> as
> > > the
> > > > boats with the permanent head, holding tank and head enclosure.
> > > >
> > > > Mary Lou
> > > >
> > > > At 08:04 AM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Wally,
> > > > >
> > > > >I think it's great that you are enjoying racing, and have learned you
> can
> > > > >PHRF race with bigger boats and beat them.  Go Wally!
> > > > >
> > > > >As for the genny selection, I'm with Steve on this... get the 155.
> It
> > > makes
> > > > >a great deal of sense NOT to penalize yourself to start with a worse
> > > (lower)
> > > > >rating just because of the perceived benefit a bigger sail implies,
> but
> > > > >really only comes into play in light air conditions.  Around here
> (lake
> > > > >sailing; no seabreeze), the best racing is in the winter anyway,
> where
> > > the
> > > > >155 would be preferable for winter's fresh breezes. You can probably
> furl
> > > a
> > > > >155 down to about a 110 with a tapered luff pad and have a little
> sail
> > > shape
> > > > >left to race with.  Also, a 155 is still considered a "light air"
> sail.
> > > > >
> > > > >Another important consideration is clew height.  A higher clewed
> headsail
> > > > >furls easier and gives you move visibility under the foot to view the
> > > > >crossing approaching traffic, so you would not need a window.  Many
> > > > >racer/cruisers seem to like these features.  However, due to
> geometry, a
> > > > >higher clewed 155 would extend much farther aft than a decksweeper
> 155.
> > > > >Also, with a decksweeper I've heard talk about "end plate" effect
> with
> > > the
> > > > >wind on the deck.  Plus the sail's center of effort is lower and more
> > > > >forward so it's easier to hold down..  I just mention these points to
> you
> > > so
> > > > >you can have a good discussion with your sailmaker.
> > > > >
> > > > >My 84 R22, the Phoenix, is on shoring supports in the yard patiently
> > > waiting
> > > > >for her "make-over".  It will probably be two years before she is
> ready
> > > to
> > > > >launch, with other work and sailing distractions in my que ahead of
> her.
> > > > >Just for the record, on the trip to NC, the Phoenix weighed in at
> 3,300
> > > > >pounds at a highway truck scale.   Seems heavy for an old boat, don't
> you
> > > > >think?
> > > > >
> > > > >Fair winds,
> > > > >
> > > > >PT
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to
> test
> > > sail
> > > > > > before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows
> that
> > > a
> > > > > > boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race
> > > committee
> > > > > > penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175
> can
> > > be
> > > > >a
> > > > > > faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of
> true
> > > wind.
> > > > > > That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for
> the
> > > best
> > > > > > sail for about 8 - 12.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed
> when
> > > > >pleasure
> > > > > > sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind
> > > speed
> > > > > > when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying
> to
> > > use
> > > > >the
> > > > > > VMG features.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I
> don't
> > > think
> > > > >my
> > > > > > boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier
> > > posts
> > > > >did
> > > > > > not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to
> furl
> > > > >main
> > > > > > and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small
> it
> > > seems
> > > > > > like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I
> might
> > > as
> > > > > > well just furl all of the way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with
> > > about 10
> > > > > > -15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wally
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > > > > >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Roger,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people
> > > often
> > > > > > >overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our
> boats
> > > and
> > > > > > >conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not
> have
> > > IMF,
> > > > > > >your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat
> is
> > > > > > >considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage,
> you
> > > do
> > > > > > >not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in
> > > conditions
> > > > > > >where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady,
> > > > > > >non-gusting wind.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many
> different
> > > > >factors
> > > > > > >could be involved.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my
> > > experience
> > > > >it
> > > > > > >is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides
> the
> > > > >power
> > > > > > >on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the
> > > boat
> > > > > > >sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking
> "hanky"
> > > coming
> > > > > > >out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There
> isn't
> > > > >another
> > > > > > >boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely
> like
> > > > > > >mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort,
> > > > >completely
> > > > > > >under control.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main
> sail
> > > > >size
> > > > > > >instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can
> set
> > > an
> > > > > > >interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I
> can
> > > > >reverse
> > > > > > >the tack and sail all the way home.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not
> > > necessarily
> > > > > > >recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the
> IMF, I
> > > > >would.
> > > > > > >  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make
> the
> > > boat
> > > > >a
> > > > > > >faster boat.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water,
> > > either.
> > > > > > >They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster
> > > when
> > > > >you
> > > > > > >are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to
> sail
> > > > >upright,
> > > > > > >and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster
> upright
> > > than
> > > > > > >heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny
> > > outside
> > > > >the
> > > > > > >shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a
> 125
> > > > >fully
> > > > > > >extended genny inside the shrouds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail
> inside
> > > > > > >shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
> > > > > > >substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to
> the
> > > > >purpose.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main
> > > point:
> > > > > > >because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently
> forget
> > > > >that
> > > > > > >there are substantial and important differences between our
> boats.  I
> > > > >don't
> > > > > > >have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs
> me
> > > when
> > > > >I
> > > > > > >see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon
> others
> > > into
> > > > > > >accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all
> other
> > > > > > >members of the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Bill Effros
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Rummy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.
> The
> > > force
> > > > > > >available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
> > > > > > >[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30
> deg
> > > > >with
> > > > > > >the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an
> upwind
> > > beat
> > > > >&
> > > > > > >yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to
> 20
> > > knots?
> > > > > > >This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to
> stand
> > > up
> > > > > > >against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the
> heeling
> > > force
> > > > > > >that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!
> The
> > > more
> > > > > > >likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I
> use a
> > > > >hand
> > > > > > >held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.
> Again,
> > > get
> > > > > > >yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your
> data.
> > > We
> > > > > > >can
> > > > > > >argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your
> anecdotal
> > > > >examples
> > > > > > >over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
> > > > > > >overestimating the wind speed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
> > > > > > >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Roger,
> > > > > > > > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go
> sailing.
> > > > >Until
> > > > > > >then,
> > > > > > > > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list.
> You
> > > bring
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > rum.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rummy
> > > > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >__________________________________________________
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> > > > > > >__________________________________________________
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> > > > > >
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