lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
Wally Buck
tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Mon Mar 15 08:00:56 EST 2004
I have the extended tracks as well with second set of blocks for spinnaker.
Wally
>From: Mary Lou Troy <mltroy at verizon.net>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:51:13 -0500
>
>Thanks for adding food for thought Lloyd - I figured that if Peter's
>tracks were longer, someone else probably had them too. One never knows
>whether a difference is evolution or variation until others chime in. What
>is your headsail and do you ever use those cars that far back?
>
>Mary Lou
>
>
>
>
>At 12:02 AM 3/15/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>Mary Lou,
>>
>>My '84 Rhodes has the same length genoa track as Peter's, i.e., extending
>>about to the Rhodes 22 nameplate. I can move the cars well aft of the
>>winches.
>>
>>Lloyd
>>s/v Uhuru II
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:27 PM
>>Subject: Re: lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>>
>>
>>Peter,
>>I think you have a long genoa track (or maybe the right length ;-) ). I
>>just spent a while looking at the R22 pics on my hard drive and on the
>>rhodes22.org site. Looks like most are about like Fretless though there is
>>a small variation - none as long as yours though.
>>
>>Fretless was purchased recycled with a new genoa and main by Doyle
>>Offshore. Stan and crew set her up and Stan actually sailed her briefly in
>>a moderate breeze. The genoa is on a GBI furler so I suspect there isn't
>>anything unusual with the forestay. Stan has commented that R22s tend to a
>>neutral helm and that it is not uncommon for them to have slight lee helm
>>in light air but that as the winds kick up the lee helm goes away.
>>Obviously we've had more of an issue with it than that but we are working
>>on it for just the reasons you list.
>>
>>Thanks again,
>>Mary Lou
>>
>>At 07:54 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Mary Lou,
>> >
>> >Given that the board is all the way down and as forward as possible,
>>then
>> >the only way to cure lee helm would be to move the rig aft. If your
>>move
>> >the rig's Center of Effort aft, the lee helm would reduce, then go away.
>> >Move it far enough and you will have weather helm. The devil is in
>> >determining exactly how much distance to move aft. I think lengthening
>>the
>> >forestay is a great place to start.
>> >
>> >B/T/W, I just looked at a great picture of Fretless, Fred and you
>>(attached)
>> >showing your big 175 and Genoa tracks. The tracks do not appear to
>>extend
>> >past the winches. On Phoenix, the tracks start at about the same place
>>as
>> >they do on Fretless, but they extend almost to the "Rhodes 22"
>>nameplate. I
>> >suppose there is a lot of rigging variance among R22s. If so, it makes
>>me
>> >wonder if all R22s have the same length forestay and other standing
>>rigging.
>> >Clearly, the I, J, P and E are set by Phillip Rhodes, but that still
>>leaves
>> >a lot of room for standing rigging adjustment. I've never seen an R22
>> >specification that includes this information. Have you or anyone?
>> >
>> >In one-design classes, sailmakers publish "tuning guides" that recommend
>> >specific lengths for various standing rigging parts, to optimize
>>trimming
>> >their sails. Perhaps you could contact the sailmaker of your Genoa and
>> >obtain a recommended forestay length and other standing rigging
>>dimensions
>> >for Fretless with the IMF and 175. This could give you an idea if your
>> >current forestay could be way out.
>> >
>> >To answer your question about trimming the Genoa more forward than its
>> >current aft position on the tracks, imagine the situation like this: 1)
>>the
>> >sail is a big triangle, fixed to the stem fitting at the tack, which
>>cannot
>> >move; 2) lengthening the forestay would rotate the sail head aft: 3) the
>> >clew would be correspondingly rotated down toward the deck; 4) this
>>would
>> >move the trim point forward on the Genoa track.
>> >
>> >Most boats are designed with a slight weather helm as a safety factor so
>>in
>> >a puff or heavy air, you can count on the boat rounding up to a luff if
>>the
>> >tiller is let go. A boat with lee helm just wants to bear off and take
>>on
>> >more air, if left to its own devices. Under adverse conditions this
>>could
>> >cause some problems - an uncontrolled and unexpected gybe, for example.
>>I
>> >think this is a problem worth solving.
>> >
>> >Fair winds,
>> >
>> >PT
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Peter,
>> >I'm not following. I don't think there is any way that the clew of the
>> >genoa will trim forward on the tracks - no matter how far aft we rake
>>the
>> >mast. Closehauled, our 175 trims right to the aft end of our genoa track
>>by
>> >the winch. I don't believe the inch or so that we can adjust the
>>forestay
>> >(We have a couple of holes left on the adjuster) will make much
>>difference
>> >in where the genoa will trim to - it might however improve the helm -
>> >that's what we're hoping. I don't think we would want the mast raked any
>> >more than that.
>> >
>> >In response to your other suggestion, we have measured to make sure the
>> >mast is true and haven't found any problems.
>> >
>> >You are correct that the IMF requires a dead straight mast - no bend.
>>The
>> >good news is that with the double walls in the mast I 'm not sure you
>>could
>> >bend it if you tried - something else would probably break first. We
>>have
>> >been fussing with rig tuning for the past couple of years and have
>>decided
>> >that we were initially sailing with it too loose. Thanks for all the
>> >suggestions. We'll keep mulling things over as we get ready for launch.
>> >
>> >Mary Lou
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >At 04:22 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> > >Mary Lou,
>> > >
>> > >"Sailing with the 175 all the way out
>> > >(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the Genoa
>>track"
>> > >
>> > >That seems like the smoking gun to me, so I think you have already
>> > >discovered the problem. If the forestay is too short and is pulling
>>the
>> >rig
>> > >forward, that certainly could give you lee helm.
>> > >
>> > >Most sails are designed and cut to power up at the forward most Genoa
>>car
>> > >position. For example, with the Genoa cars all the way forward and
>>going
>> > >close hauled, when you head up the Genoa should break evenly along the
>> >luff,
>> > >top to bottom. With this set up to depower, instead of furling, you
>>can
>> > >just pull the Genoa car back and the top leech opens and spills air.
>> > >Because your entire rig is so far forward, to get the luff to break
>>evenly
>> > >you have already moved the Genoa car all the way aft and have no room
>> > >remaining to adjust sheet leads aft. Your existing 175 is probably
>>cut
>> >just
>> > >fine, but on too short a forestay pulling the top of the mast too far
>> > >forward.
>> > >
>> > >To correct this tuning problem you could determine exactly how much
>>longer
>> > >the forestay needs to be so that the clew of the 175, when
>>close-hauled,
>> > >trims near the front of the Genoa tracks. I'll bet you and Fred could
>>do
>> > >this in the backyard, on a calm day, with the rig up and 175 fully
>>out.
>> >Try
>> > >to get the boat's waterline reasonably level with the trailer jacks
>>(this
>> >is
>> > >not critically important). Don't attach the forward lower shrouds (to
>> >allow
>> > >the mast to learn aft) and get a 15' or so piece of strong line, like
>>5/32
>> > >spectra, that you could loop between the bottom forestay fitting and
>>the
>> > >stem head fitting 3 or 4 times, for a good purchase. Tie this off and
>>then
>> > >take up loose tension with the backstays. When you have increased the
>>mast
>> > >rake so that your 175 clew trims forward on the tracks, you'll know
>>exactly
>> > >how much longer (than your existing) to order a new forestay.
>> > >
>> > >As far as this port/starboard lee helm variance thing goes, have you
>> >checked
>> > >you rig for "trueness"? (You might want to do this first, so you'll
>>know
>> >if
>> > >it really is way out of adjustment before you try the forestay thing):
>> >With
>> > >your boat rigged on the trailer, attach a tape measure to a masthead
>> >halyard
>> > >and lock off the halyard. Then, with tape tight, measure to the
>>starboard
>> > >deck and then to the port deck, being sure to measure to corresponding
>>same
>> > >spots. A boat with a "true" mast will result in equal measurements.
>>If
>> > >yours is way out, that could be the culprit.
>> > >
>> > >I am not a rig tuning expert by any means. I suspect the IMF main
>>probably
>> > >always requires a dead straight mast, so as not to mess up the
>>internal
>> > >roller. There is a lot of reference material available about how to
>>do
>> >tune
>> > >rigs. I have read that too loose a rig can be dangerous because it
>>allows
>> > >large forces to develop when gusts and waves combine. Too tight a rig
>>just
>> > >overstresses the hull. Like Goldilocks' porridge, your rig should be
>>tuned
>> > >"just right".. A quick Google search tuned up plenty of resources
>>(tapes,
>> > >books) and some looked pretty good.
>> > >
>> > >I hope some of this is helpful to you.
>> > >
>> > >Fair Winds,
>> > >
>> > >PT
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Peter,
>> > >Our lee helm is more noticeable in light air - though even in higher
>> > >windspeeds we need to furl with the helm in mind. It is more prominent
>>on
>> > >port tack - maybe something to do with the big outboard on the port
>>stern
>> > >or the heavy galley to starboard or....? We seem to have more issues
>>than
>> > >other R22s. I've heard a number of reports of lee helm or neutral in
>>light
>> > >air but we've had significant lee helm at 10 knots. We've made lots of
>> > >changes with weight distribution, making sure the centerboard drops
>>all
>>the
>> > >way and tightening the backstays. Some of these improved the situation
>>but
>> > >it's still there. This year we're going to let the forestay out a
>>notch
>>at
>> > >the masthead. We meant to do it last year but forgot and it wasn't
>>enough
>> > >of a problem to drop the mast again. Sailing with the 175 all the way
>>out
>> > >(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the genoa
>>track.
>>Are
>> > >you suggesting that with it partially furled we should keep the cars a
>>bit
>> > >further aft than we might ordinarily? We'll have to try to remember
>>that.
>> > >As might be expected, we also can make improvements playing with the
>> > >traveler. We didn't get many opportunities to sail in steady winds
>>last
>> > >year so most of our playing around was from the year before.
>> > >
>> > >Not really sure about our ideal big genoa. For a long time I thought
>>it
>> > >would be smaller than a 175 but we had 6 or 7 sails this past year
>>where
>> > >the 175 was just perfect. Don't know if we'd have done nearly as well
>>with
>> > >a 155 or 160 but maybe so. It would definitely be lighter than the
>>current
>> > >very heavy sailcloth. The heaviness is necessary I suppose if you are
>>never
>> > >going to change sails but I like the idea of having several. I'll be
>> > >interested to hear what Wally thinks once he has his new sail -
>>whatever
>>it
>> > >is.
>> > >
>> > >Mary Lou
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> > > >Mary Lou,
>> > > >
>> > > >Just a thought... To get rid of lee helm with your 175, have you
>>tried
>> > > >moving the genoa lead tack point much farther aft on the genoa
>>track?
>> >This
>> > > >should spill air from the top of the sail, lower the headsail's
>>center
>>of
>> > > >effort, and, combined with an appropriate amount of furling for the
>> > > >conditions, perhaps help to balance the helm. I agree that you
>>would
>> >also
>> > > >want to keep as much main out as possible, as you suggested, to
>>maintain
>> > >the
>> > > >Center of Effort farther aft and that the IMF, with no roach,
>>would
>> >tend
>> > > >to aggravate this condition because it's CE is farther forward.
>> > > >
>> > > >Under what conditions do you develop lee helm?
>> > > >
>> > > >What size and weight would your "ideal big genoa" be?
>> > > >
>> > > >Fair winds,
>> > > >
>> > > >PT
>> > > >
>> > > >----- Original Message -----
>> > > >From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
>> > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > >Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:04 AM
>> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >Wally, we reduce sail well before 20 knots (actual or apparent)
>> >windspeed.
>> > > >Our 175 seems to be the perfect sail from 4 to 10 knots. I suspect
>>we
>> >begin
>> > > >to furl it a little before 10 if it's gusty. I don't think we've
>>ever
>> >tried
>> > > >Bill's method of furling the main more than the genny as we are
>>always
>> > > >trying to get rid of lee helm. For the record we don't like the 175
>>for
>> > > >much below 4 knots of wind - the sailcloth is just too heavy to keep
>>the
>> > > >sail full in any kind of wave action - that's one of the reasons we
>>went
>> >to
>> > > >the UPS for really light air.
>> > > >
>> > > >My current thinking on an ideal set of sails for our boat and the
>>way
>>we
>> > > >sail would be the UPS, a somewhat lighter big genoa and a heavier
>> >125-130.
>> > > >
>> > > >I think a standard main with a roach would affect heeling
>>differently
>> >than
>> > > >the IMF main. I also suspect (but don't know) that furling our mains
>>the
>> > > >way we do makes them more susceptible to having them develop a blown
>>out
>> > > >belly and that this may affect heeling as well. I've also noticed
>>that
>>it
>> > > >is easier to get a flatter main with our new through-the-boom
>>outhaul
>> > > >arrangement - we used to have to tie the outhaul off to a horn cleat
>>so
>> >it
>> > > >was not very adjustable on the go.
>> > > >
>> > > >Mary Lou
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >At 10:27 AM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> > > > >I have IMF. I am amazed at the range of comments regarding wind
>>speed
>> >and
>> > > > >sail selection. I don't see how it could matter if I had IMF or
>> >Standard
>> > > > >main. My boat needs sails reduced in 20 plus.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Wally
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>> > > > >>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > > >>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>> > > > >>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:59:49 -0500
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Standard main or IMF?
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Bill Effros
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >>From: Wally Buck
>> > > > >>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > > > >>Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:14 AM
>> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>My boat must be light or something. At 20 heading upwind my 125
>>is
>> > >furled
>> > > >to
>> > > > >>keep me off the rail and I am fighting a 30 degree heel. Most
>>likely
>> > >the
>> > > > >>boom is lowered halfway as well. I like exciting sails as much as
>> >anyone
>> > > >and
>> > > > >>more than most. Too bad you can't try sails out and return them
>>like
>> > > >clothes
>> > > > >>that don't quite fit!
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Still have an open mind .....
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>Wally
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>> > > > >> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > > >> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>> > > > >> >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:04:45 -0500
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >Twice in one day.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >Again, Wally, I agree with Rummy. I rarely furl below 20
>>knots.
>>I
>> > >sail
>> > > > >> >the boat upright with minimum heel. I generally sail alone.
>>The
>> >175
>> > > >makes
>> > > > >> >it very easy to come about. I adjust sail sizes to keep the
>>boat
>> >well
>> > > > >> >balanced. When I'm sailing in crowded harbors I reduce the
>>size
>>of
>> > >the
>> > > >175
>> > > > >> >so I can see the traffic better.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >Bill Effros
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >> >From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> > > > >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > > > >> >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:18 PM
>> > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >Wally,
>> > > > >> >When you furl depends a lot on your style of sailing and how
>>much
>> > > >ballast
>> > > > >> >(people weight) you have with you. When alone, I never furl
>>until
>> >the
>> > > >winds
>> > > > >> >gust
>> > > > >> >above 20 knots. Below that and I'm comfortable. The 175 is an
>> >awesome
>> > > >sail.
>> > > > >> >Besides looking good, it is an excellent performer in lite air
>>as
>> >Bill
>> > > > >> >mentioned. By the way, I think this is one of the first times
>>anyone
>> > >has
>> > > > >> >agreed with me
>> > > > >> >on the list.....I appreciate your support Bill.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >Rummy
>> > > > >> >__________________________________________________
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>> > > > >>
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