[Rhodes22-list] Pointing

Thu May 6 08:19:40 EDT 2004

Fellow Rhodies,

OK- my R22 is still on shoring supports in the yard and I haven't actually
sailed it yet.  So my comments come to you tempered by a lifetime of
one-design racing experience in centerboard dinghies and keelboats, but no
actual hands-on R22 experience.  Please feel free to enter this discussion
with any polite corrections to my assumptions and assertions below.

I just can't quite "grog" it that an R22 doesn't point.  Beamy? I think not!
I just measured the beam to be just a little over 6' at the waterline.  20'
/ 6'  =  3.333 length to beam ratio.  An R22 is not beamy at the waterline
where it counts, and it should have a fast hull form.  It certainly looks
fast!  The cantilevered freeboard, among other things, leverages the crew
weight helping to keep it flat.  I would expect extra meat on the rail helps
a great deal to windward.  A fixed keel, low lead stiff, deep draft fin, of
course, would be much better for that, (and much worse for other matters
like launching, retrieving, gunkholing and getting unstuck). But I don't see
any reason why the hull form, when sailed properly, won't point reasonably
well.

Isn't it best to sail the R22 with 20 degrees or less of heel?   Judging
from the looks of Phoenix's underwater shape, which I stare at everyday,
much of the lift is derived from the centerboard and the rudder.  When they
get too much out of plumb, lift will drop and pointing  will suffer - much
more like a centerboard  dinghy than, say, a 12 meter.  Of course, this all
happens unbeknownst to the skipper who might be exhilarated by the "heeling
forces", the speed, the fact the bow is pointing up, but not realizing that
the boat is making more leeway.  Detecting leeway underway is very difficult
and excessive leeway will gobble VMG to windward.  Maybe it would help to
shorten sail early, or take on extra crew for rail meat, or sail with a
bubble in the main luff -- whatever it takes to keep the mast more or less
upright and underwater fins within their effective working range of
verticality.

Another idea - don't pinch.  Crack off a little and get the speed up.  Most
underwater foils begin to stall at slow speeds.  Once the stall starts, the
boat can be dead plumb but the leeway will begin to mount drastically as the
boat is driven to leeward  by the wind like flotsam in the water.

What about headsail sheeting angle?  Have you ever seen an R22 with headsail
tracks on the cabin top?  For those with hatches there, this would not be
possible - but just looking at the boat with "fresh eyes", I cannot see why
one could not place them there.

In fact, I  have a picture of my father going to windward very nicely in his
70s vintage Rhodes Continental with a hanked-on, high clewed, blade headsail
(maybe a 110).  Looks like ideal pointing conditions, smooth water, clear
air, perhaps 10-12 knots (no whitecaps).  The headsail appears to be tacked
at the cabin top, near the base of the mast.  Does anyone out there have a
headsail set up like this?  How about it Bob Dilk, is your wire luff small
jib set up that way?  Seems to me that if all else fails, a closer sheeting
angle might help pointing quite a bit.

Fair winds,

Peter Thorn
s/v Phoenix '84

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing

> 15-20 knots of wind and only 3.5-4 knots of boat speed, now that is
embarrassing. unless it a typeo you need a sail trimming lesson
> that best done on the water.
>
> MJM
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Keller" <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com>
> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:30 AM
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
>
>
> > Just read some discussion about pointing at 45 degrees.  We just
returned
> > from another trip to Florida (Charlotte Harbor area) and we had winds in
the
> > 15-20 knot range most of the week.  While pointing to windward on our
last
> > day, we had 16-18 knots, the sheets were inside the shrouds, the sheets
were
> > run through my new inside genoa track and the best we could point was
50-55
> > degrees to the apparent wind. Steering was by autopilot while I tweaked
the
> > sails and kept pointing us as high as possible. The wind instrument
(ST-40)
> > told me all this, so it was not an estimate or a WAG.  Anyway, I noticed
> > that a number of larger, deeper draft boats were pointing much better,
which
> > is logical since the R-22 is a small, beamy trailerable boat and close
> > hauled is not the best point of sail.  My rigging is not really "tuned"
but
> > I did have the backstay tight.  Just wanted to share this with the list
> > because 45 degrees would be excellent, especially with a 175 genoa...
We
> > had the mainsail half furled (IMF) and the genoa only out about halfway
and
> > the boom in the lower position.  Even when the wind was gusting to 20-21
> > knots, the ride was very comfortable, and the heeling was minimal: 15
> > degrees or less, which made my wife very happy.  She enjoyed it
immensely.
> > Our boat speed was about 3.5 - 4 knots.
> > Bob K
> > Yankee Clipper
> > The boat will be back at Lake Hartwell in two weeks, as soon as the
damage
> > from trailering has been repaired (don't ask)!
> >
> >
> > >From: <reme2952 at verizon.net>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: Re: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 7:03:31 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > > > Ben,
> > >Thanks for your response.  Your suggestions were well taken, but I know
we
> > >can do even better than 45 degrees.  We'll be sure to let you know how.
> > >) Andy
> > > > From: Ben Schultz <BenS at ApproSystems.com>
> > > > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu PM 01:48:52 CDT
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > >
> > > > Andy,
> > > >
> > > > Call me crazy, but 45 degrees is pretty good for a beamy sailboat
made
> > >for
> > > > comfort more than made for racing.  Most of the cruising boats that
I've
> > > > been on can point only to about 50-55 degrees.
> > > >
> > > > That said, something else to try is to furl the genoa, and bring the
> > >sheets
> > > > inside the shrouds.  Also, of course, make sure the pop-top and
hatches
> > >are
> > > > closed.  All of that can make a big difference.
> > > >
> > > > You didn't mention wind speed in your message.  Since moving the
> > >traveler
> > > > windward helped, I would think that it was pretty light air.
Naturally,
> > >the
> > > > best sail trim and rigging options will vary with the strength of
the
> > >wind.
> > > > If you have standard main, how old is it?  You will probably lose
> > >pointing
> > > > ability as the sailcloth loses stiffness.  I'm sure your bottom is
clean
> > > > after the refurb., but if not, that can cause a difference also.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, I'm currently sailing with nice soft sails, a bottom that
is
> > > > slimier than it should be, and usually with the bimini and pop top
up,
> > >so
> > > > what do I know?
> > > >
> > > > Good luck,
> > > > Ben
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Andy Lessard [ mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com
> > > > <mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com> ]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 07:06
> > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Help!     We got our butts kicked last night.
> > > >
> > > > We are the proud, new owners of a refurbished Rhodes22.  We enjoy
> > >cruising,
> > > > but trading from a J22, we still appreciate performance and a little
> > > > competition in sailing with the cruising fleet at Riverton Yacht
Club on
> > >the
> > > > Deleware.
> > > >
> > > > Elton did an excellent job getting the boat set up and on the go.
But
> > >we do
> > > > not have any information about tuning.  We have new Doyle sails.
> > > >
> > > > We would also appreciate any help in how to best trim the sails to
point
> > > > better to the wind.  With the rigging set up the way we were given
the
> > >boat,
> > > > the best we could manage was 60 degrees to the wind.  With the
current
> > >we
> > > > have on the river, that is not high enough to even make the weather
> > >mark.
> > > > What we have done is keep the boom in the lower position, moved the
car
> > >as
> > > > far back as it will go on the jib sheet and trimmed the jib sheet
back
> > > > almost to the car.  Last night we tried moving the traveller on the
main
> > >to
> > > > windward and that seemed to help.  What helped the most was cranking
> > >down on
> > > > the rear stay.  To windward, we kept the centerboard all the way
down.
> > >With
> > > > all these efforts, the best we could point was about 45 degrees.
Still
> > >not
> > > > enough.
> > > >
> > > > Any help will be greatly appreciated.  We do understand we are not
> > >sailing a
> > > > J22, but we also know that every sailboat has its optimum tuning and
> > > > trimming. Thank You,
> > > >
> > > > Andy Lessard
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
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