[Rhodes22-list] Pointing

Thu May 6 13:08:08 EDT 2004

Stan,

Where does that R22 club racer sail?

PT

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing

> he claims he beats everything in his club.
>
> ss
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Weber" <ruba1811 at hotmail.com>
> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
>
>
> > Peter, I think you hit the nail in the head with your evaluation.
> Probably
> > the biggest factor in getting effective use to the centers of resistance
> is
> > good triming of the rig.  I have had the boats rigging tuned to such
that
> > there was nutral helm and it was leeway city.  Putting out the right
> amount
> > of sail is another factor which will greatly improve windward
preformance.
> > Stan sold a boat to someone who planned on racing it.  I think he gutted
> the
> > cabin and had plans for racing sails and spar.  I would guess that boat
> woud
> > scream.  Stan, do you ever hear from that guy?  You will find when you
> sail
> > the boat it will remind you of a dingy more than a keelboat.  Bob Weber
> >
> >
> > >From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
> > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> > >Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 07:19:40 -0400
> > >
> > >Fellow Rhodies,
> > >
> > >OK- my R22 is still on shoring supports in the yard and I haven't
> actually
> > >sailed it yet.  So my comments come to you tempered by a lifetime of
> > >one-design racing experience in centerboard dinghies and keelboats, but
> no
> > >actual hands-on R22 experience.  Please feel free to enter this
> discussion
> > >with any polite corrections to my assumptions and assertions below.
> > >
> > >I just can't quite "grog" it that an R22 doesn't point.  Beamy? I think
> > >not!
> > >I just measured the beam to be just a little over 6' at the waterline.
> 20'
> > >/ 6'  =  3.333 length to beam ratio.  An R22 is not beamy at the
> waterline
> > >where it counts, and it should have a fast hull form.  It certainly
looks
> > >fast!  The cantilevered freeboard, among other things, leverages the
crew
> > >weight helping to keep it flat.  I would expect extra meat on the rail
> > >helps
> > >a great deal to windward.  A fixed keel, low lead stiff, deep draft
fin,
> of
> > >course, would be much better for that, (and much worse for other
matters
> > >like launching, retrieving, gunkholing and getting unstuck). But I
don't
> > >see
> > >any reason why the hull form, when sailed properly, won't point
> reasonably
> > >well.
> > >
> > >Isn't it best to sail the R22 with 20 degrees or less of heel?
Judging
> > >from the looks of Phoenix's underwater shape, which I stare at
everyday,
> > >much of the lift is derived from the centerboard and the rudder.  When
> they
> > >get too much out of plumb, lift will drop and pointing  will suffer -
> much
> > >more like a centerboard  dinghy than, say, a 12 meter.  Of course, this
> all
> > >happens unbeknownst to the skipper who might be exhilarated by the
> "heeling
> > >forces", the speed, the fact the bow is pointing up, but not realizing
> that
> > >the boat is making more leeway.  Detecting leeway underway is very
> > >difficult
> > >and excessive leeway will gobble VMG to windward.  Maybe it would help
to
> > >shorten sail early, or take on extra crew for rail meat, or sail with a
> > >bubble in the main luff -- whatever it takes to keep the mast more or
> less
> > >upright and underwater fins within their effective working range of
> > >verticality.
> > >
> > >Another idea - don't pinch.  Crack off a little and get the speed up.
> Most
> > >underwater foils begin to stall at slow speeds.  Once the stall starts,
> the
> > >boat can be dead plumb but the leeway will begin to mount drastically
as
> > >the
> > >boat is driven to leeward  by the wind like flotsam in the water.
> > >
> > >What about headsail sheeting angle?  Have you ever seen an R22 with
> > >headsail
> > >tracks on the cabin top?  For those with hatches there, this would not
be
> > >possible - but just looking at the boat with "fresh eyes", I cannot see
> why
> > >one could not place them there.
> > >
> > >In fact, I  have a picture of my father going to windward very nicely
in
> > >his
> > >70s vintage Rhodes Continental with a hanked-on, high clewed, blade
> > >headsail
> > >(maybe a 110).  Looks like ideal pointing conditions, smooth water,
clear
> > >air, perhaps 10-12 knots (no whitecaps).  The headsail appears to be
> tacked
> > >at the cabin top, near the base of the mast.  Does anyone out there
have
> a
> > >headsail set up like this?  How about it Bob Dilk, is your wire luff
> small
> > >jib set up that way?  Seems to me that if all else fails, a closer
> sheeting
> > >angle might help pointing quite a bit.
> > >
> > >Fair winds,
> > >
> > >Peter Thorn
> > >s/v Phoenix '84
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:02 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> > >
> > >
> > > > 15-20 knots of wind and only 3.5-4 knots of boat speed, now that is
> > >embarrassing. unless it a typeo you need a sail trimming lesson
> > > > that best done on the water.
> > > >
> > > > MJM
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bob Keller" <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com>
> > > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:30 AM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Just read some discussion about pointing at 45 degrees.  We just
> > >returned
> > > > > from another trip to Florida (Charlotte Harbor area) and we had
> winds
> > >in
> > >the
> > > > > 15-20 knot range most of the week.  While pointing to windward on
> our
> > >last
> > > > > day, we had 16-18 knots, the sheets were inside the shrouds, the
> > >sheets
> > >were
> > > > > run through my new inside genoa track and the best we could point
> was
> > >50-55
> > > > > degrees to the apparent wind. Steering was by autopilot while I
> > >tweaked
> > >the
> > > > > sails and kept pointing us as high as possible. The wind
instrument
> > >(ST-40)
> > > > > told me all this, so it was not an estimate or a WAG.  Anyway, I
> > >noticed
> > > > > that a number of larger, deeper draft boats were pointing much
> better,
> > >which
> > > > > is logical since the R-22 is a small, beamy trailerable boat and
> close
> > > > > hauled is not the best point of sail.  My rigging is not really
> > >"tuned"
> > >but
> > > > > I did have the backstay tight.  Just wanted to share this with the
> > >list
> > > > > because 45 degrees would be excellent, especially with a 175
> genoa...
> > >We
> > > > > had the mainsail half furled (IMF) and the genoa only out about
> > >halfway
> > >and
> > > > > the boom in the lower position.  Even when the wind was gusting to
> > >20-21
> > > > > knots, the ride was very comfortable, and the heeling was minimal:
> 15
> > > > > degrees or less, which made my wife very happy.  She enjoyed it
> > >immensely.
> > > > > Our boat speed was about 3.5 - 4 knots.
> > > > > Bob K
> > > > > Yankee Clipper
> > > > > The boat will be back at Lake Hartwell in two weeks, as soon as
the
> > >damage
> > > > > from trailering has been repaired (don't ask)!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: <reme2952 at verizon.net>
> > > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > > >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 7:03:31 -0500
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ben,
> > > > > >Thanks for your response.  Your suggestions were well taken, but
I
> > >know
> > >we
> > > > > >can do even better than 45 degrees.  We'll be sure to let you
know
> > >how.
> > > > > >) Andy
> > > > > > > From: Ben Schultz <BenS at ApproSystems.com>
> > > > > > > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu PM 01:48:52 CDT
> > > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call me crazy, but 45 degrees is pretty good for a beamy
> sailboat
> > >made
> > > > > >for
> > > > > > > comfort more than made for racing.  Most of the cruising boats
> > >that
> > >I've
> > > > > > > been on can point only to about 50-55 degrees.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, something else to try is to furl the genoa, and
bring
> > >the
> > > > > >sheets
> > > > > > > inside the shrouds.  Also, of course, make sure the pop-top
and
> > >hatches
> > > > > >are
> > > > > > > closed.  All of that can make a big difference.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You didn't mention wind speed in your message.  Since moving
the
> > > > > >traveler
> > > > > > > windward helped, I would think that it was pretty light air.
> > >Naturally,
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > best sail trim and rigging options will vary with the strength
> of
> > >the
> > > > > >wind.
> > > > > > > If you have standard main, how old is it?  You will probably
> lose
> > > > > >pointing
> > > > > > > ability as the sailcloth loses stiffness.  I'm sure your
bottom
> is
> > >clean
> > > > > > > after the refurb., but if not, that can cause a difference
also.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, I'm currently sailing with nice soft sails, a
bottom
> > >that
> > >is
> > > > > > > slimier than it should be, and usually with the bimini and pop
> top
> > >up,
> > > > > >so
> > > > > > > what do I know?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good luck,
> > > > > > > Ben
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Andy Lessard [ mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com
> > > > > > > <mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com> ]
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 07:06
> > > > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Help!     We got our butts kicked last night.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We are the proud, new owners of a refurbished Rhodes22.  We
> enjoy
> > > > > >cruising,
> > > > > > > but trading from a J22, we still appreciate performance and a
> > >little
> > > > > > > competition in sailing with the cruising fleet at Riverton
Yacht
> > >Club on
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > Deleware.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Elton did an excellent job getting the boat set up and on the
> go.
> > >But
> > > > > >we do
> > > > > > > not have any information about tuning.  We have new Doyle
sails.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We would also appreciate any help in how to best trim the
sails
> to
> > >point
> > > > > > > better to the wind.  With the rigging set up the way we were
> given
> > >the
> > > > > >boat,
> > > > > > > the best we could manage was 60 degrees to the wind.  With the
> > >current
> > > > > >we
> > > > > > > have on the river, that is not high enough to even make the
> > >weather
> > > > > >mark.
> > > > > > > What we have done is keep the boom in the lower position,
moved
> > >the
> > >car
> > > > > >as
> > > > > > > far back as it will go on the jib sheet and trimmed the jib
> sheet
> > >back
> > > > > > > almost to the car.  Last night we tried moving the traveller
on
> > >the
> > >main
> > > > > >to
> > > > > > > windward and that seemed to help.  What helped the most was
> > >cranking
> > > > > >down on
> > > > > > > the rear stay.  To windward, we kept the centerboard all the
way
> > >down.
> > > > > >With
> > > > > > > all these efforts, the best we could point was about 45
degrees.
> > >Still
> > > > > >not
> > > > > > > enough.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any help will be greatly appreciated.  We do understand we are
> not
> > > > > >sailing a
> > > > > > > J22, but we also know that every sailboat has its optimum
tuning
> > >and
> > > > > > > trimming. Thank You,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy Lessard
> > > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > >
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