[Rhodes22-list] Pointing

Thu May 6 12:43:50 EDT 2004

he claims he beats everything in his club.

ss
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Weber" <ruba1811 at hotmail.com>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing

> Peter, I think you hit the nail in the head with your evaluation.
Probably
> the biggest factor in getting effective use to the centers of resistance
is
> good triming of the rig.  I have had the boats rigging tuned to such that
> there was nutral helm and it was leeway city.  Putting out the right
amount
> of sail is another factor which will greatly improve windward preformance.
> Stan sold a boat to someone who planned on racing it.  I think he gutted
the
> cabin and had plans for racing sails and spar.  I would guess that boat
woud
> scream.  Stan, do you ever hear from that guy?  You will find when you
sail
> the boat it will remind you of a dingy more than a keelboat.  Bob Weber
>
>
> >From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> >Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 07:19:40 -0400
> >
> >Fellow Rhodies,
> >
> >OK- my R22 is still on shoring supports in the yard and I haven't
actually
> >sailed it yet.  So my comments come to you tempered by a lifetime of
> >one-design racing experience in centerboard dinghies and keelboats, but
no
> >actual hands-on R22 experience.  Please feel free to enter this
discussion
> >with any polite corrections to my assumptions and assertions below.
> >
> >I just can't quite "grog" it that an R22 doesn't point.  Beamy? I think
> >not!
> >I just measured the beam to be just a little over 6' at the waterline.
20'
> >/ 6'  =  3.333 length to beam ratio.  An R22 is not beamy at the
waterline
> >where it counts, and it should have a fast hull form.  It certainly looks
> >fast!  The cantilevered freeboard, among other things, leverages the crew
> >weight helping to keep it flat.  I would expect extra meat on the rail
> >helps
> >a great deal to windward.  A fixed keel, low lead stiff, deep draft fin,
of
> >course, would be much better for that, (and much worse for other matters
> >like launching, retrieving, gunkholing and getting unstuck). But I don't
> >see
> >any reason why the hull form, when sailed properly, won't point
reasonably
> >well.
> >
> >Isn't it best to sail the R22 with 20 degrees or less of heel?   Judging
> >from the looks of Phoenix's underwater shape, which I stare at everyday,
> >much of the lift is derived from the centerboard and the rudder.  When
they
> >get too much out of plumb, lift will drop and pointing  will suffer -
much
> >more like a centerboard  dinghy than, say, a 12 meter.  Of course, this
all
> >happens unbeknownst to the skipper who might be exhilarated by the
"heeling
> >forces", the speed, the fact the bow is pointing up, but not realizing
that
> >the boat is making more leeway.  Detecting leeway underway is very
> >difficult
> >and excessive leeway will gobble VMG to windward.  Maybe it would help to
> >shorten sail early, or take on extra crew for rail meat, or sail with a
> >bubble in the main luff -- whatever it takes to keep the mast more or
less
> >upright and underwater fins within their effective working range of
> >verticality.
> >
> >Another idea - don't pinch.  Crack off a little and get the speed up.
Most
> >underwater foils begin to stall at slow speeds.  Once the stall starts,
the
> >boat can be dead plumb but the leeway will begin to mount drastically as
> >the
> >boat is driven to leeward  by the wind like flotsam in the water.
> >
> >What about headsail sheeting angle?  Have you ever seen an R22 with
> >headsail
> >tracks on the cabin top?  For those with hatches there, this would not be
> >possible - but just looking at the boat with "fresh eyes", I cannot see
why
> >one could not place them there.
> >
> >In fact, I  have a picture of my father going to windward very nicely in
> >his
> >70s vintage Rhodes Continental with a hanked-on, high clewed, blade
> >headsail
> >(maybe a 110).  Looks like ideal pointing conditions, smooth water, clear
> >air, perhaps 10-12 knots (no whitecaps).  The headsail appears to be
tacked
> >at the cabin top, near the base of the mast.  Does anyone out there have
a
> >headsail set up like this?  How about it Bob Dilk, is your wire luff
small
> >jib set up that way?  Seems to me that if all else fails, a closer
sheeting
> >angle might help pointing quite a bit.
> >
> >Fair winds,
> >
> >Peter Thorn
> >s/v Phoenix '84
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:02 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> >
> >
> > > 15-20 knots of wind and only 3.5-4 knots of boat speed, now that is
> >embarrassing. unless it a typeo you need a sail trimming lesson
> > > that best done on the water.
> > >
> > > MJM
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Keller" <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com>
> > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:30 AM
> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> > >
> > >
> > > > Just read some discussion about pointing at 45 degrees.  We just
> >returned
> > > > from another trip to Florida (Charlotte Harbor area) and we had
winds
> >in
> >the
> > > > 15-20 knot range most of the week.  While pointing to windward on
our
> >last
> > > > day, we had 16-18 knots, the sheets were inside the shrouds, the
> >sheets
> >were
> > > > run through my new inside genoa track and the best we could point
was
> >50-55
> > > > degrees to the apparent wind. Steering was by autopilot while I
> >tweaked
> >the
> > > > sails and kept pointing us as high as possible. The wind instrument
> >(ST-40)
> > > > told me all this, so it was not an estimate or a WAG.  Anyway, I
> >noticed
> > > > that a number of larger, deeper draft boats were pointing much
better,
> >which
> > > > is logical since the R-22 is a small, beamy trailerable boat and
close
> > > > hauled is not the best point of sail.  My rigging is not really
> >"tuned"
> >but
> > > > I did have the backstay tight.  Just wanted to share this with the
> >list
> > > > because 45 degrees would be excellent, especially with a 175
genoa...
> >We
> > > > had the mainsail half furled (IMF) and the genoa only out about
> >halfway
> >and
> > > > the boom in the lower position.  Even when the wind was gusting to
> >20-21
> > > > knots, the ride was very comfortable, and the heeling was minimal:
15
> > > > degrees or less, which made my wife very happy.  She enjoyed it
> >immensely.
> > > > Our boat speed was about 3.5 - 4 knots.
> > > > Bob K
> > > > Yankee Clipper
> > > > The boat will be back at Lake Hartwell in two weeks, as soon as the
> >damage
> > > > from trailering has been repaired (don't ask)!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: <reme2952 at verizon.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > >Subject: Re: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 7:03:31 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ben,
> > > > >Thanks for your response.  Your suggestions were well taken, but I
> >know
> >we
> > > > >can do even better than 45 degrees.  We'll be sure to let you know
> >how.
> > > > >) Andy
> > > > > > From: Ben Schultz <BenS at ApproSystems.com>
> > > > > > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu PM 01:48:52 CDT
> > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Call me crazy, but 45 degrees is pretty good for a beamy
sailboat
> >made
> > > > >for
> > > > > > comfort more than made for racing.  Most of the cruising boats
> >that
> >I've
> > > > > > been on can point only to about 50-55 degrees.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, something else to try is to furl the genoa, and bring
> >the
> > > > >sheets
> > > > > > inside the shrouds.  Also, of course, make sure the pop-top and
> >hatches
> > > > >are
> > > > > > closed.  All of that can make a big difference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You didn't mention wind speed in your message.  Since moving the
> > > > >traveler
> > > > > > windward helped, I would think that it was pretty light air.
> >Naturally,
> > > > >the
> > > > > > best sail trim and rigging options will vary with the strength
of
> >the
> > > > >wind.
> > > > > > If you have standard main, how old is it?  You will probably
lose
> > > > >pointing
> > > > > > ability as the sailcloth loses stiffness.  I'm sure your bottom
is
> >clean
> > > > > > after the refurb., but if not, that can cause a difference also.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course, I'm currently sailing with nice soft sails, a bottom
> >that
> >is
> > > > > > slimier than it should be, and usually with the bimini and pop
top
> >up,
> > > > >so
> > > > > > what do I know?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good luck,
> > > > > > Ben
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Andy Lessard [ mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com
> > > > > > <mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com> ]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 07:06
> > > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Help!     We got our butts kicked last night.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are the proud, new owners of a refurbished Rhodes22.  We
enjoy
> > > > >cruising,
> > > > > > but trading from a J22, we still appreciate performance and a
> >little
> > > > > > competition in sailing with the cruising fleet at Riverton Yacht
> >Club on
> > > > >the
> > > > > > Deleware.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Elton did an excellent job getting the boat set up and on the
go.
> >But
> > > > >we do
> > > > > > not have any information about tuning.  We have new Doyle sails.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would also appreciate any help in how to best trim the sails
to
> >point
> > > > > > better to the wind.  With the rigging set up the way we were
given
> >the
> > > > >boat,
> > > > > > the best we could manage was 60 degrees to the wind.  With the
> >current
> > > > >we
> > > > > > have on the river, that is not high enough to even make the
> >weather
> > > > >mark.
> > > > > > What we have done is keep the boom in the lower position, moved
> >the
> >car
> > > > >as
> > > > > > far back as it will go on the jib sheet and trimmed the jib
sheet
> >back
> > > > > > almost to the car.  Last night we tried moving the traveller on
> >the
> >main
> > > > >to
> > > > > > windward and that seemed to help.  What helped the most was
> >cranking
> > > > >down on
> > > > > > the rear stay.  To windward, we kept the centerboard all the way
> >down.
> > > > >With
> > > > > > all these efforts, the best we could point was about 45 degrees.
> >Still
> > > > >not
> > > > > > enough.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any help will be greatly appreciated.  We do understand we are
not
> > > > >sailing a
> > > > > > J22, but we also know that every sailboat has its optimum tuning
> >and
> > > > > > trimming. Thank You,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy Lessard
> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The information transmitted may contain confidential material
and
> >is
> > > > > > intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or
> >taking
> >of
> > > > >any
> > > > > > action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient
is
> > > > > > prohibited.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the
> >information
> > > > >from
> > > > > > your system and contact the sender.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > > The information transmitted may contain confidential material
and
> >is
> > > > > > intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed.
> > > > > > Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or
> >taking
> >of
> > > > >any
> > > > > > action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient
is
> > > > > > prohibited.
> > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the
> >information
> > > > >from
> > > > > > your system and contact the sender.
> > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >__________________________________________________
> > > > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> > > > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
> Premium!
>
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/dire
ct/01/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>