[Rhodes22-list] Pointing
Bob Weber
ruba1811 at hotmail.com
Thu May 6 11:23:56 EDT 2004
Peter, I think you hit the nail in the head with your evaluation. Probably
the biggest factor in getting effective use to the centers of resistance is
good triming of the rig. I have had the boats rigging tuned to such that
there was nutral helm and it was leeway city. Putting out the right amount
of sail is another factor which will greatly improve windward preformance.
Stan sold a boat to someone who planned on racing it. I think he gutted the
cabin and had plans for racing sails and spar. I would guess that boat woud
scream. Stan, do you ever hear from that guy? You will find when you sail
the boat it will remind you of a dingy more than a keelboat. Bob Weber
>From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
>Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 07:19:40 -0400
>
>Fellow Rhodies,
>
>OK- my R22 is still on shoring supports in the yard and I haven't actually
>sailed it yet. So my comments come to you tempered by a lifetime of
>one-design racing experience in centerboard dinghies and keelboats, but no
>actual hands-on R22 experience. Please feel free to enter this discussion
>with any polite corrections to my assumptions and assertions below.
>
>I just can't quite "grog" it that an R22 doesn't point. Beamy? I think
>not!
>I just measured the beam to be just a little over 6' at the waterline. 20'
>/ 6' = 3.333 length to beam ratio. An R22 is not beamy at the waterline
>where it counts, and it should have a fast hull form. It certainly looks
>fast! The cantilevered freeboard, among other things, leverages the crew
>weight helping to keep it flat. I would expect extra meat on the rail
>helps
>a great deal to windward. A fixed keel, low lead stiff, deep draft fin, of
>course, would be much better for that, (and much worse for other matters
>like launching, retrieving, gunkholing and getting unstuck). But I don't
>see
>any reason why the hull form, when sailed properly, won't point reasonably
>well.
>
>Isn't it best to sail the R22 with 20 degrees or less of heel? Judging
>from the looks of Phoenix's underwater shape, which I stare at everyday,
>much of the lift is derived from the centerboard and the rudder. When they
>get too much out of plumb, lift will drop and pointing will suffer - much
>more like a centerboard dinghy than, say, a 12 meter. Of course, this all
>happens unbeknownst to the skipper who might be exhilarated by the "heeling
>forces", the speed, the fact the bow is pointing up, but not realizing that
>the boat is making more leeway. Detecting leeway underway is very
>difficult
>and excessive leeway will gobble VMG to windward. Maybe it would help to
>shorten sail early, or take on extra crew for rail meat, or sail with a
>bubble in the main luff -- whatever it takes to keep the mast more or less
>upright and underwater fins within their effective working range of
>verticality.
>
>Another idea - don't pinch. Crack off a little and get the speed up. Most
>underwater foils begin to stall at slow speeds. Once the stall starts, the
>boat can be dead plumb but the leeway will begin to mount drastically as
>the
>boat is driven to leeward by the wind like flotsam in the water.
>
>What about headsail sheeting angle? Have you ever seen an R22 with
>headsail
>tracks on the cabin top? For those with hatches there, this would not be
>possible - but just looking at the boat with "fresh eyes", I cannot see why
>one could not place them there.
>
>In fact, I have a picture of my father going to windward very nicely in
>his
>70s vintage Rhodes Continental with a hanked-on, high clewed, blade
>headsail
>(maybe a 110). Looks like ideal pointing conditions, smooth water, clear
>air, perhaps 10-12 knots (no whitecaps). The headsail appears to be tacked
>at the cabin top, near the base of the mast. Does anyone out there have a
>headsail set up like this? How about it Bob Dilk, is your wire luff small
>jib set up that way? Seems to me that if all else fails, a closer sheeting
>angle might help pointing quite a bit.
>
>Fair winds,
>
>Peter Thorn
>s/v Phoenix '84
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:02 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
>
>
> > 15-20 knots of wind and only 3.5-4 knots of boat speed, now that is
>embarrassing. unless it a typeo you need a sail trimming lesson
> > that best done on the water.
> >
> > MJM
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Keller" <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com>
> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:30 AM
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Pointing
> >
> >
> > > Just read some discussion about pointing at 45 degrees. We just
>returned
> > > from another trip to Florida (Charlotte Harbor area) and we had winds
>in
>the
> > > 15-20 knot range most of the week. While pointing to windward on our
>last
> > > day, we had 16-18 knots, the sheets were inside the shrouds, the
>sheets
>were
> > > run through my new inside genoa track and the best we could point was
>50-55
> > > degrees to the apparent wind. Steering was by autopilot while I
>tweaked
>the
> > > sails and kept pointing us as high as possible. The wind instrument
>(ST-40)
> > > told me all this, so it was not an estimate or a WAG. Anyway, I
>noticed
> > > that a number of larger, deeper draft boats were pointing much better,
>which
> > > is logical since the R-22 is a small, beamy trailerable boat and close
> > > hauled is not the best point of sail. My rigging is not really
>"tuned"
>but
> > > I did have the backstay tight. Just wanted to share this with the
>list
> > > because 45 degrees would be excellent, especially with a 175 genoa...
>We
> > > had the mainsail half furled (IMF) and the genoa only out about
>halfway
>and
> > > the boom in the lower position. Even when the wind was gusting to
>20-21
> > > knots, the ride was very comfortable, and the heeling was minimal: 15
> > > degrees or less, which made my wife very happy. She enjoyed it
>immensely.
> > > Our boat speed was about 3.5 - 4 knots.
> > > Bob K
> > > Yankee Clipper
> > > The boat will be back at Lake Hartwell in two weeks, as soon as the
>damage
> > > from trailering has been repaired (don't ask)!
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: <reme2952 at verizon.net>
> > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 7:03:31 -0500
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Ben,
> > > >Thanks for your response. Your suggestions were well taken, but I
>know
>we
> > > >can do even better than 45 degrees. We'll be sure to let you know
>how.
> > > >) Andy
> > > > > From: Ben Schultz <BenS at ApproSystems.com>
> > > > > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu PM 01:48:52 CDT
> > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Call me crazy, but 45 degrees is pretty good for a beamy sailboat
>made
> > > >for
> > > > > comfort more than made for racing. Most of the cruising boats
>that
>I've
> > > > > been on can point only to about 50-55 degrees.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, something else to try is to furl the genoa, and bring
>the
> > > >sheets
> > > > > inside the shrouds. Also, of course, make sure the pop-top and
>hatches
> > > >are
> > > > > closed. All of that can make a big difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > You didn't mention wind speed in your message. Since moving the
> > > >traveler
> > > > > windward helped, I would think that it was pretty light air.
>Naturally,
> > > >the
> > > > > best sail trim and rigging options will vary with the strength of
>the
> > > >wind.
> > > > > If you have standard main, how old is it? You will probably lose
> > > >pointing
> > > > > ability as the sailcloth loses stiffness. I'm sure your bottom is
>clean
> > > > > after the refurb., but if not, that can cause a difference also.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course, I'm currently sailing with nice soft sails, a bottom
>that
>is
> > > > > slimier than it should be, and usually with the bimini and pop top
>up,
> > > >so
> > > > > what do I know?
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck,
> > > > > Ben
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Andy Lessard [ mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com
> > > > > <mailto:lessard at fabulousfloors.com> ]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 07:06
> > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] tuning and such
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Help! We got our butts kicked last night.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are the proud, new owners of a refurbished Rhodes22. We enjoy
> > > >cruising,
> > > > > but trading from a J22, we still appreciate performance and a
>little
> > > > > competition in sailing with the cruising fleet at Riverton Yacht
>Club on
> > > >the
> > > > > Deleware.
> > > > >
> > > > > Elton did an excellent job getting the boat set up and on the go.
>But
> > > >we do
> > > > > not have any information about tuning. We have new Doyle sails.
> > > > >
> > > > > We would also appreciate any help in how to best trim the sails to
>point
> > > > > better to the wind. With the rigging set up the way we were given
>the
> > > >boat,
> > > > > the best we could manage was 60 degrees to the wind. With the
>current
> > > >we
> > > > > have on the river, that is not high enough to even make the
>weather
> > > >mark.
> > > > > What we have done is keep the boom in the lower position, moved
>the
>car
> > > >as
> > > > > far back as it will go on the jib sheet and trimmed the jib sheet
>back
> > > > > almost to the car. Last night we tried moving the traveller on
>the
>main
> > > >to
> > > > > windward and that seemed to help. What helped the most was
>cranking
> > > >down on
> > > > > the rear stay. To windward, we kept the centerboard all the way
>down.
> > > >With
> > > > > all these efforts, the best we could point was about 45 degrees.
>Still
> > > >not
> > > > > enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any help will be greatly appreciated. We do understand we are not
> > > >sailing a
> > > > > J22, but we also know that every sailboat has its optimum tuning
>and
> > > > > trimming. Thank You,
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy Lessard
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >
> > > > > The information transmitted may contain confidential material and
>is
> > > > > intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or
>taking
>of
> > > >any
> > > > > action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
> > > > > prohibited.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the
>information
> > > >from
> > > > > your system and contact the sender.
> > > > >
> > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > The information transmitted may contain confidential material and
>is
> > > > > intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed.
> > > > > Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or
>taking
>of
> > > >any
> > > > > action by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
> > > > > prohibited.
> > > > > If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the
>information
> > > >from
> > > > > your system and contact the sender.
> > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________________________
> > > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> > > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
_________________________________________________________________
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
Premium!
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/
More information about the Rhodes22-list
mailing list