[Rhodes22-list]Politics: Another Fearless Prediction

[Marc Steiger]

Bill-

After reading this, I find it hard to believe that your book is truly
unbiased. 

Frankly, I think Roger's points are well taken. I have much more
confidence
in what he writes, having read his opinions by lurking on this board for
a few years, than of some unnamed unknown weapons inspectors and
"independent" 
Chemical engineers from all over the world.  Who knows what political or
social slant they start with before making their reports.

We do know for sure that no WMD were found in Iraq.  I agree with you on
that point.  I wonder if Iraq was pretending to manufacture WMD during
the 90s to have greater respect in the middle eastern community, fooling
both their peers and us.

It seems to me that young people are dying not for political slogans,
but for a war against Islamic Terrorism in which we are just in the
opening skirmishes, a war that will last a generation.  This war is not
currently going well for us in Iraq, but the political question of the
day should be who is best able to lead us through the next stage of this
war.

As for my parents eating dog food, what have you been smoking. We are
living in a period of the wealthiest senior citizens in the history of
this country.

Anyway, thought I would add a comment as I don't usually speak up much.
Back to work.

Marc Steiger
s/v Duck

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:19 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Another Fearless Prediction

Roger,

According to the CIA, the State Department, the Defense Department,
United Nations weapons inspectors, our own weapons inspectors, and
independent chemical engineers all over the world, you are mistaken.

The entire world knew before we invaded Iraq that Iraq did not have WMD.
Our government claimed to have intelligence no one else had proving the
world wrong, and us right.  The whole world now knows there was no such
evidence, and claims to the contrary were simply untrue.  We knew no
more than anyone else, and after invading Iraq, our own experts have
clearly stated that Iraq had no WMD before the war.

While many of the things you say are true, the fact of the matter is
that Iraq was unwilling or unable to manufacture chemical, biological,
or nuclear WMD after 1991, and they destroyed everything they had
manufactured before that date to the satisfaction of every expert in
this field who ever set foot in Iraq.  There is no evidence, absolute
zero, to the contrary.

It is time to stop making fearless predictions, and to start using your
intellect to better purposes.  This country is in trouble.  Our young
people are dying for political slogans.  Skilled working age men like
you are unable to find work.  Our parents are eating dog food to make
ends meet.

All these problems have solutions, and each of us has something to
contribute.  Blaming everything on bogeymen won't help.

Bill

 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Roger Pihlaja 
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Another Fearless Prediction


Bill,

As a chemical engineer, I can tell you that blister agents and the
precursors for nerve agents are relatively easy to produce.  The
equipment &
feed chemicals to produce these materials have many legitimate uses &
are
available on the open market from many sources.  Likewise, spray dryers,
fermentation vessels, and the equipment to produce bioweapons have many
legitimate uses & are available on the open market from many sources.
Neither of these materials require particularly high tech chemistry or
processing.  It doesn't have to be a very big facility either.
Significant
quantities of either type of weapon could be manufactured in a process
that
would fit into a few semi trailers or a small warehouse.  The Iraqi's
are
smart, well-educated people & there were billions of dollars of
resources to
throw at the problem.  The fact that the United States cut off their
supply
of chemical & biological agents means nothing.  It would have simply
spurred
Saddam to build up his own production capability & he had years & the
entire
world to shop from.

Don't you recall that almost imediately after the Iraqi's produced their
10,000 pages of documentation, there were questions regarding the fate
of
the existing stockpiles?  There were no records produced of the
destruction
of these weapons, there was no incineration facility, no witnesses to
the
destruction process came forward to testify.  You don't just dispose of
some
of the most toxic stuff known in a bonfire.  It requires a specially
designed incinerator & carefully controlled procedures.  This is a
process
that had to require months if not years to complete.  Yet, it didn't
seem to
leave any sort of footprints behind.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Another Fearless Prediction


> Brad,
>
> We supplied Iraq with that WMD, and we sanctioned its use.  We thought
it
was the only way Iraq had a chance against Iran.  Iran also used WMD
against
the Iraqis, but to a lesser extent.
>
> The Kurds sided with Iran in the war as a way to possibly carve a
piece
out of Iraq if Iran won the war.  Iraqis do not regard Kurds as "Our Own
People" any more than southerners saw freed slaves as "Our Own People"
during the civil war--and for many years thereafter.
>
> When we stopped providing the precursor chemicals, Iraq lost the
ability
to make WMD.  The stuff does have a limited shelf life.  At some point
everyone destroys the WMD on the shelf, because old casings start
leaking
and your own soldiers start keeling over.
>
> Iraq provided 10,000 pages of documentation showing when and where
they
had destroyed their WMD.  The UN inspection teams verified that the
stuff
was destroyed.  There were bookkeeping errors--some of the chemicals
have
multiple uses--but no one could find so much as a gram of the stuff
where it
wasn't supposed to be.
>
> The United States said that as soon as we "liberated" Iraq, the Iraqi
scientists would show us where the WMD had been made and had been
hidden,
but not a single scientist materialized after the invasion.
>
> David Kay was one of the leading United States experts who insisted
before
the war that Iraq had WMD.  He spent 6 months desperately looking for
them
and then finally concluded that Iraq did not have them and had not had
them.
He's the one who said we were almost all wrong on this issue.
>
> We know exactly what happened to the WMD Saddam had, and we know he
lacked
the ability to make more.  Let's not start speculating about whether
space
aliens (or Syrians) drove off with it.
>
> Bill
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: brad haslett
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Another Fearless Prediction
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Where have you been hiding?  WMD conspiracy theories?
> I love/hate the New Yorker Magazine but I'll use it to
> make a point.  Saddams's possession AND use of WMD is
> well documented.  Where are they now?  Don't know.
>
> http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020325fa_FACT1
>
> There's tons of info on this attack and others.  I'm
> using this article out of convenience because I
> remember reading it when it was first published.
>
> Brad Haslett
> "CoraShen"
> --- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
> > Brad,
> >
> > That's the 1991 analysis of chemical agents.  CIA
> > was wrong about their ability to create and store
> > chemical agents after 1991.  They couldn't and
> > didn't.  We know that now.
> >
> > We provided Iraq with the biological weapons.  They
> > didn't have the ability to develop them by
> > themselves.  Iraq never developed the ability to
> > make them.  They never had nukes, and never came
> > close.  We provided the precursor chemicals required
> > for Iraq's manufacture of chemical weapons, and we
> > authorized their use, but when we pulled the plug
> > they were never able to produce the stable chemicals
> > required in sufficient quantity for a weapons
> > program.  We have stockpiles of many of the same
> > chemical WMD, and like the Iraqis, we destroyed
> > several different types because they were unstable.
> >
> > We didn't find WMD because Iraq didn't have WMD.
> > Our government spent over a billion dollars looking
> > for something every knowledgeable person knew wasn't
> > there and hadn't been there.  There are real issues
> > to address.  Let's not spend a lot of time
> > concocting WMD conspiracy theories.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: brad haslett
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Politics: Another
> > Fearless Prediction
> >
> >
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > Here's a link to the Federation of American
> > Scientists
> > 1991 analysis of Iraq's bio capability based on CIA
> > data.
> >
> > http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960705/73919_01.htm
> >
> > Brad Haslett
> > "CoraShen"
> >
> >
> > --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Scott Rider's assertions to the contrary, consider
> > > this.  At the time Iraq
> > > developed & was using their chemical & biological
> > > weapons, they were the 4th
> > > largest military force in the world.  Iraq is
> > mostly
> > > desert & all of Iraq's
> > > neighbors are mostly desert.  Thus, any battle
> > > scenario that the Iraq
> > > military could reasonably foresee, not matter
> > > whether it was defensive or
> > > offensive would involve desert warfare.  These are
> > > smart people being driven
> > > by a madman for whom failure was not an option.
> > > Literally billions of
> > > dollars in resources were available to these
> > > programs.  When your family is
> > > being held hostage & your own life is in danger of
> > > imprisonment &/or torture
> > > if you don't succeed, I would imagine most folks
> > > would get right down to
> > > business & solve the biological, chemical,
> > > shelflife, & other technical
> > > problems of getting chemical & biological weapons
> > to
> > > work in a desert combat
> > > scenario.  No one doubts that the United States &
> > > Russia know how to build
> > > biological and chemical weapons.  The chemical
> > > weapons disposal program in
> > > the US Army involved warheads that were something
> > > like 30+ years old & they
> > > were treated with due respect.  Why would anyone
> > > doubt that the Iraq
> > > military couldn't build a similarly robust, long
> > > shelf life weapon?
> > > Sometimes, you have to give the devil his due.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 6:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Another Fearless
> > > Prediction
> > >
> > >
> > > > "If we find something, great, but
> > professionally,
> > > > I don't see how these weapons could exist. They
> > > > defy the laws of industry, the laws of science
> > and
> > > > technology.They have no shelf life."
> > > >
> > > > Scott Ridder
> > > > Former UN Inspector
> > > > April 18, 2003
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 3:34 PM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Another Fearless
> > > Prediction
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Brad,
> > > >
> > > > Since your news story seems to have vindicated
> > the
> > > prediction I made last
> > > summer regarding smuggling WMD's out of Iraq into
> > > Syria & Lebanon, let me
> > > make another fearless prediction.  By, the way
> > Bill,
> > > you are mistaken
> > > regarding the shelf life & stability of chemical &
> > > biological weapons.  They
> > > are both plenty stable enough to be transported
> > long
> > > distances over the
> > > desert.  If they weren't, they would never survive
> > > the heat & pressure of
> > > the explosive used to disperse them when the
> > warhead
> > > goes off.  Anthrax, for
> > > example, is a bacteria that lives naturally in the
> > > soil by forming spores
> > > that are remarkably resistant to the environment.
> > > So-called "weaponized"
> > > Anthrax is actually a mixture of spray dried
> > Anthrax
> > > spores stuck to the
> > > surface of particles of an inert low density
> > > substrate such as finely ground
> > > cellulose.  The trick is to get the particle size
> > > distribution just right so
> > > the particles tend to get lofted into the air,
> > float
> > > around on air currents
> > > for long distances, & eventually get inhaled by
> > > potential victims.  In the
> > > moist, warm conditions inside the respiratory
> > tract,
> > > the Anthrax spores
> > > spring back to life & infect the victim.  Chemical
> > > weapons are usually of
> > > the so-called "binary" type wherein the warhead
> > > actually contains two
> > > compartments.  Each compartment contains a
> > reactive
> > > precusor.  When the
> > > warhead is fired, the precursor chemicals are
> > mixed
> > > together & chemically
> > > react to form the final toxin, such as a nerve
> > > agent.  Although the final
> > > toxin may have a short half life, each of the
> > > precursor chemicals is quite
> > > stable over long periods of time.
> > > >
> > > > I just heard a news story that the US State Dept
> > > has approved the sale of
> > > several hundred million dollars worth of
> > > "penetrating munitions" to Israel.
> > > Now what do you suppose Israel would want with a
> > > boatload of bunker busters?
> > > Unless Iran opens up its nuclear program to permit
> > > on-site inspections, I
> > > predict Israel will do a coordinated air assault
> > to
> > > take out about a dozen
> > > key Iranian nuclear facilities all at the same
> > time,
> > > in a scaled-up version
> > > of a similar operation they pulled on Iraq in
> > 1985(I
> > > think that was the
> > > year?).  I predict this will happen in less than a
> > > year from now.  The
> > > United States will chastise Israel in public for
> > > this action; but, in
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
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