[Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
Wally Buck
tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Fri Sep 23 09:15:59 EDT 2005
Bill,
I guess Julie Anderson hasn't learn much as well. There are always traffic
jams when they evacuate large cities. The larger the population the bigger
the problem.
She is 45 miles away from Houston, the storm isn't due until tomorrow. Shut
up and keep driving. It sounds like she will be safe. She is whining already
and not a drop of rain. This just goes to show how difficult the task is.
There will always be problems with an evacuation of this size. You don't
seem to understand this. Nothing iis perfect. People are free to leave when
ever they want. You don't have to wait for a government order.
Wally
>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
>Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:18:59 -0400
>
>Wally,
>
>Maybe you were right. This from the Associated Press:
>
>"This is the worst planning I've ever seen," said Judie Anderson, who
>covered just 45 miles in 12 hours after setting out from her home in the
>Houston suburb of LaPorte. "They say we've learned a lot from Hurricane
>Katrina. Well, you couldn't prove it by me."
>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>Wally Buck wrote:
>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I heard the mayors of Gavelston and Houston interviewed last night. They
>>were asked what changes they made to evac plan post Katrina. The said
>>basically none. They have spent years educating the public about the
>>dangers of hurricanes. They talked about how hard they had trained for.
>>
>>I think the real lessons learned were from the citizens. I have a fealing
>>people will take these storms more serioulsy in the future.
>>
>>Wally
>>
>>
>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:48:22 -0400
>>>
>>>Wally,
>>>
>>>I did not mean to berate Herb, and I do understand how my comments could
>>>have been taken that way, and for that I apologize to Herb, and to the
>>>rest of the list.
>>>
>>>What I was trying to say was that people on the scene can tell us what
>>>they see, but that those first hand accounts should not be confused with
>>>expertise about obscure laws that do not apply, or a special knowledge of
>>>the sequence of events which the observer did not see.
>>>
>>>The Blind Men and the Elephant.
>>>
>>>I am not blaming anyone for anything, except those who yell "Blame Game"
>>>over and over to obscure the facts, and then start flooding the Internet
>>>with completely false information. In my view that is dangerous, and
>>>someone must speak out against it. General Honore has done so, and I
>>>applaud him for it.
>>>
>>>The current situation with Rita is exactly the same as the situation with
>>>Katrina was, this many days before the hurricane hit. FEMA is in action.
>>> Local governments are doing their best. Pre-determined evacuation
>>>plans are being implemented on the local, state and federal levels.
>>>Things have been learned in the intervening 3 weeks, they are being
>>>applied, and we will surely have less loss of life this time around.
>>>
>>>And that is the reason it is so important to get the facts right, from
>>>the get-go, and not be lulled by a President who says, wrongly, again and
>>>again, "There is plenty of time for us to figure out what went wrong..."
>>>Well, there wasn't plenty of time to figure out what went wrong, and
>>>luckily many people started trying to figure it out and do something
>>>about it immediately..
>>>
>>>Bill Effros
>>>
>>>Wally Buck wrote:
>>>
>>>>Bill,
>>>>
>>>>Herb provided us a first hand account of what he witnessed. The man has
>>>>been through hell and has still taken the time to help. Why are you
>>>>berating him? He never claimed he was an expert.
>>>>
>>>>I must admit I have to chuckly every time I see Busch on TV. I think the
>>>>guy is a clown. However he did not cause this. Not to make light but in
>>>>some ways the less hands on .....the less he will screw up.
>>>>
>>>>It seems obvious that there wasn't a sound evacuation plan. This is a
>>>>local issue not federal. If we focus on seeking blame this will happen
>>>>again. If we focus on how local governments can better prepare for these
>>>>type emergencies the citizens will be better off. If there were protocol
>>>>issues fix them. Blaming Bush solves nothing.
>>>>
>>>>Wally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Horse shit and drinking.
>>>>>Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:47:12 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>Herb,
>>>>>
>>>>>Driving a boat through muck does not qualify you as a jurisdictional
>>>>>expert in Federal Emergency Management. What you heard from people in
>>>>>the water, that they did what they were supposed to do, is correct.
>>>>>However, FEMA must coordinate the response to emergencies. That is its
>>>>>mandate. They don't need to get permission from anyone else--that's
>>>>>their job when emergencies occur.
>>>>>
>>>>>FEMA was like a deer in the headlights. First responders were turned
>>>>>away by FEMA officials in New Orleans. This did not happen in New
>>>>>York. I think we all agree that the heads of FEMA were incompetent
>>>>>political cronies. They will be gone. However, their superiors in the
>>>>>Federal Government did not take this matter seriously enough to
>>>>>interrupt what they were doing to oversee what was obviously a
>>>>>disaster.
>>>>>
>>>>>Just like local officials in New York, the local officials in New
>>>>>Orleans did their best and screwed up. We lost 100s of first
>>>>>responders here in NYC due to the incompetence of our local
>>>>>politicians. But we saved thousands due to the prompt, if not always
>>>>>correct, actions of the Federal Government.
>>>>>
>>>>>The Federal Government was on vacation this August, but, unlike you,
>>>>>the individuals in positions of responsibility did not take time off
>>>>>from their vacations to deal with an emergency while it was happening.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is part of a trend that has been noted often before. Let me point
>>>>>out, yet again, that on August 6, 2001 President Bush received a memo
>>>>>from the CIA, while vacationing on his ranch, entitled: "Bin Laden
>>>>>Determined to Strike in US". The President did not interrupt his
>>>>>vacation for that one, either.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>>Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>You're leaving out one major factor in the comparison. The FAA has
>>>>>>jurisdiction over flights. The Mayor of New Orleans has jurisdiction
>>>>>>over the city, the Governor over the state of Louisiana. I'm going to
>>>>>>repeat this, from what I heard at the scene, the Coast Guard in
>>>>>>Alexandria was ready BEFORE the storm hit. Their services were offered
>>>>>>to the state, the state declined, putting their game wardens in
>>>>>>charge. Once the feds were released to act, they acted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's a popular misconception for folks to talk about "not answering
>>>>>>the phone" when the President is on "vacation." He has a phone when
>>>>>>he's on vacation. He has an office when he's on vacation. It's that
>>>>>>type of hyperbole that diminishes credibility for those that employ
>>>>>>it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>BTW, I was on "vacation" when I was in New Orleans. I've got the pay
>>>>>>stubs to prove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb Parsons
>>>>>>
>>>>>>S/V O'Jure
>>>>>> 1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>
>>>>>>S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>> 1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>bill at effros.com 9/20/2005 8:09:56 AM >>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In early 2001 FEMA identified the 3 most catastrophic situations it
>>>>>>might some day have to address. They were:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. A terrorist attack on NYC.
>>>>>>2. A major earthquake in San Francisco.
>>>>>>3. A levee break in New Orleans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 11, 2001, 37 minutes after the take-off of the first
>>>>>>hijacked airplane, the FAA requested that military aircraft scramble
>>>>>>to help deal with the known hijacking. Within 9 minutes there were
>>>>>>military aircraft in the sky. 4 minutes later, the military received
>>>>>>notice that the airplane they were trying to find had just hit the
>>>>>>World Trade Center. The President of the United States, on his way to
>>>>>>a "Photo Op" in a school in Florida, was immediately informed. He
>>>>>>told reporters before entering the school that he was aware of the
>>>>>>fact that a plane had smashed into the World Trade Center. 3 minutes
>>>>>>later the FAA determined that a second aircraft had been hijacked, and
>>>>>>immediately the FAA began contacting and diverting airplanes. 7
>>>>>>minutes later a different FAA flight controller called a different
>>>>>>military installation to request help. A minute later, another FAA
>>>>>>flight controller, in yet another part of the country called another
>>>>>>military unit to request aircraft be scrambled. None of these flight
>>>>>>controllers knew that the others had acted. The military did not know
>>>>>>that it had received multiple requests. 8 minutes later there were
>>>>>>multiple military fighter jets over Long Island. 5 minutes later the
>>>>>>fighters were moved over Manhattan. A minute later jets were
>>>>>>scrambled from Langly AFB in Virginia and sent up to NYC because the
>>>>>>fighters over NYC were running low on fuel. 8 minutes later the FAA
>>>>>>closed all NYC airports. 4 minutes later the Port Authority of NYC
>>>>>>closed all bridges and tunnels. 1 minute later the FAA told Dulles
>>>>>>air controllers to watch for incoming hijacked aircraft. 4 minutes
>>>>>>later the military established a combat air patrol over Manhattan,
>>>>>>and, at the same time, the FAA grounded all aircraft all over the
>>>>>>country. 5 minutes later, the President of the United States went on
>>>>>>National TV to announce that the country had suffered "an apparent
>>>>>>terrorist attack". 15 minutes later the White House was evacuated.
>>>>>>12 minutes later the President left Florida for an Air Force Base in
>>>>>>Louisiana. 9 minutes later the South Tower of the World Trade Center
>>>>>>collapsed. 5 minutes later part of the Pentagon collapsed. 9 minutes
>>>>>>later the UN building was evacuated. 15 minutes later the North Tower
>>>>>>of the World Trade Center collapsed. 17 minutes later all Federal
>>>>>>buildings in Washington DC were evacuated. 7 minutes later, all DC
>>>>>>area airports were closed. 10 minutes later the Mayor of NYC ordered
>>>>>>the evacuation of everyone south of the World Trade Center. 2 hours
>>>>>>and 2 minutes later, the President of the United States, speaking from
>>>>>>Barksdale AFB in Louisiana, said the US military has been put on high
>>>>>>alert world wide. 44 minutes later the President of the United States
>>>>>>flew to an Air Force base in Nebraska. 4 hours and 53 minutes later,
>>>>>>Defense Secretary Rumsfeld announced that the Pentagon had re-opened
>>>>>>and was conducting business. 13 minutes later the President returned
>>>>>>to the White House from Omaha, Nebraska. By this time, FEMA was on
>>>>>>the ground, inside both New York City and Washington DC coordinating
>>>>>>the nation's response to the disaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now let's compare that response to the Federal Government's response
>>>>>>to Hurricane Katrina.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Friday, August 26 the State of Louisiana declared a state of
>>>>>>emergency because it was clear that hurricane Katrina was going to
>>>>>>strike somewhere on the Louisiana coast. FEMA was automatically
>>>>>>notified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Saturday, August 27, FEMA took no action to mitigate what was sure
>>>>>>to be a major disaster somewhere on the Gulf Coast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sunday, August 28, the National Weather Service posted this warning
>>>>>>under the headline :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>''Hurricane Katrina. A most powerful hurricane with unprecedented
>>>>>>strength.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps
>>>>>>longer...Power outages will last for weeks...Water shortages will make
>>>>>>human suffering incredible by modern standards.''
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The warning had been written years earlier. Only the name of the
>>>>>>hurricane was inserted at the last minute. There was no question that
>>>>>>the hurricane would strike somewhere along the Gulf Coast of the
>>>>>>United States, resulting in massive loss of life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The President of the United States immediately issued a declaration of
>>>>>>emergency for the Gulf Coast region. He also found time to cut a cake
>>>>>>for John McCain, play a guitar for Mark Wills, deliver an address
>>>>>>about V-J day, and stay at his ranch to continue his vacation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Mayor of New Orleans issued a mandatory evacuation order for the
>>>>>>entire city.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Monday, August 29, the hurricane hit, at 6:10 am narrowly missing
>>>>>>New Orleans, but flattening several cities to the East. The loss of
>>>>>>life in one small town in Mississippi was immediately known to be
>>>>>>greater than the total loss of life resulting from 3 hurricanes that
>>>>>>hit Florida the previous year which resulted in a massive and
>>>>>>immediate federal disaster relief response just prior to a
>>>>>>Presidential election in a state with 25 electoral votes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>10,000 people who were unable to leave New Orleans were already being
>>>>>>sheltered in the Superdome as part of the emergency evacuation
>>>>>>procedure devised by disaster mitigation experts from FEMA. It was
>>>>>>known that they had no food or water, and that it was the
>>>>>>responsibility of FEMA to provide everything they would need to safely
>>>>>>evacuate the victims.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The President remained on vacation. The head of FEMA went to Baton
>>>>>>Rouge. The Vice President remained on vacation. The Head of Homeland
>>>>>>security remained on vacation. The Secretary of State remained on
>>>>>>vacation. Congress remained on vacation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Local officials on the ground knew that their resources had been
>>>>>>overwhelmed, and they knew they needed massive and immediate Federal
>>>>>>assistance. Federal aid was the primary component of disaster
>>>>>>response to a tragedy of this magnitude. But the Federal Government
>>>>>>simply was not answering the phone. They were on vacation, and too
>>>>>>busy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Then the levee broke in New Orleans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Actually Rummy, I don't live in another country, nor am I basing what
>>>>>>>I say on watching "the news much". I spoke personally with the
>>>>>>>commander on duty at the Coast Guard staging area in Alexandria. He
>>>>>>>had the resources in place, waiting in Alexandria. He was waiting for
>>>>>>>permission FROM THE STATE to send them in. The STATE chose to have
>>>>>>>their resources in place, namely the Louisiana Fish and Wildlife
>>>>>>>Department (yep, that's right Governor Blanco chose to put her
>>>>>>>state's game wardens in charge of recovery, instead of the feds, who
>>>>>>>are trained to do that.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I was there friend, I saw it first hand. I saw the news cameras on
>>>>>>>site at the barricades, in their air conditioned portables studios.
>>>>>>>On the other hand, out in the streets, there were a few print media
>>>>>>>folks, but very few. The only video crew I saw "out in the field" was
>>>>>>>with the Air National Guard. The rest of the folks didn't want to
>>>>>>>stray far from their portable studios. And, in spite of your absolute
>>>>>>>belief that it was the news media that brought about change is as
>>>>>>>misguided and misinformed as the rest of the nonsense you seem to be
>>>>>>>subscribing to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But, that wasn't the point of what I was saying at all. My point was
>>>>>>>folks can stand around pointing fingers at others all they want, but
>>>>>>>that gets NOTHING done. Before anyone complains about what someone
>>>>>>>else did or did not do, they should ask themselves what THEY did.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I view the governments role to fill in where the individuals can't (I
>>>>>>>can't personally build a highway, or field an army), but that does
>>>>>>>NOT relieve the individual of their duty when the need arises. I went
>>>>>>>to NO because I couldn't be me and NOT go. My boss instructed me to
>>>>>>>stop thanking him for letting me take off, that he did so because
>>>>>>>it's what he had to do. My wife and children told me to stop
>>>>>>>apologizing for missing my wife's 50 birthday party, that they missed
>>>>>>>me, but that what I was doing was more important.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Everywhere I went, and this isn't hearing it from a television
>>>>>>>reporter looking for ratings, or an ex-first lady trying to position
>>>>>>>herself for the next presidential vacancy, EVERYWHERE I went, I saw
>>>>>>>people first hand doing what they could do; whether it was giving me
>>>>>>>some gas cans so we can put gas in our DUKW, or handing a baby to our
>>>>>>>crew on the boat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>THAT my friend, is what "we" are. We AREN'T the whimpering whining
>>>>>>>media, or the jostling politicians looking to gain ratings numbers on
>>>>>>>the Neilson or the latest poll on the backs of those that lost
>>>>>>>everything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh, and for whatever it's worth, I'm still getting in boat time too.
>>>>>>>Mast going up got delayed by a few days because of the trip, but it
>>>>>>>went up today. It had to, our sail club is taking a group of
>>>>>>>handicapped kids out sailing this weekend, and I committed and need
>>>>>>>to be ready.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>THAT's the country I live in, since you asked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now, go have your drink, and watch your game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>>1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>>Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>>1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>>Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>R22RumRunner at aol.com 9/19/2005 8:54:09 PM >>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Herb,
>>>>>>>You either live in a different country or don't watch the news much.
>>>>>>>Our gov't sat on their collective hands and did nothing for the
>>>>>>>people of NO for five, yes count them, five days. And then it was
>>>>>>>only after the news media made them look as stupid as they
>>>>>>>collectively are that they decided to finally do something.
>>>>>>>The governments own weather person said this was going to be a
>>>>>>>devastating storm 24 hours before it struck. It certainly had time
>>>>>>>to react, but no, those idiots in FEMA (not trained in emergency
>>>>>>>management) didn't know what to do. Hell, I could go on and on and
>>>>>>>rehash the same shit, but I won't. There's more important things to
>>>>>>>attend to tonight, like watching football and drinking. Remember, a
>>>>>>>shot in the glass is better than one in the ass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rummy
>>>>>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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