[Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Fri Sep 23 10:17:16 EDT 2005
Wally,
I was agreeing with you. You made a point. I said I thought you were
wrong. Then I saw this story. Then I said maybe you were right. Now
you say I don't seem to understand....
Bill Effros
Wally Buck wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I guess Julie Anderson hasn't learn much as well. There are always
> traffic jams when they evacuate large cities. The larger the
> population the bigger the problem.
>
> She is 45 miles away from Houston, the storm isn't due until tomorrow.
> Shut up and keep driving. It sounds like she will be safe. She is
> whining already and not a drop of rain. This just goes to show how
> difficult the task is.
>
> There will always be problems with an evacuation of this size. You
> don't seem to understand this. Nothing iis perfect. People are free
> to leave when ever they want. You don't have to wait for a government
> order.
>
> Wally
>
>
>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
>> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:18:59 -0400
>>
>> Wally,
>>
>> Maybe you were right. This from the Associated Press:
>>
>> "This is the worst planning I've ever seen," said Judie Anderson, who
>> covered just 45 miles in 12 hours after setting out from her home in
>> the Houston suburb of LaPorte. "They say we've learned a lot from
>> Hurricane Katrina. Well, you couldn't prove it by me."
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>>
>> Wally Buck wrote:
>>
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I heard the mayors of Gavelston and Houston interviewed last night.
>>> They were asked what changes they made to evac plan post Katrina.
>>> The said basically none. They have spent years educating the public
>>> about the dangers of hurricanes. They talked about how hard they had
>>> trained for.
>>>
>>> I think the real lessons learned were from the citizens. I have a
>>> fealing people will take these storms more serioulsy in the future.
>>>
>>> Wally
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
>>>> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:48:22 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Wally,
>>>>
>>>> I did not mean to berate Herb, and I do understand how my comments
>>>> could have been taken that way, and for that I apologize to Herb,
>>>> and to the rest of the list.
>>>>
>>>> What I was trying to say was that people on the scene can tell us
>>>> what they see, but that those first hand accounts should not be
>>>> confused with expertise about obscure laws that do not apply, or a
>>>> special knowledge of the sequence of events which the observer did
>>>> not see.
>>>>
>>>> The Blind Men and the Elephant.
>>>>
>>>> I am not blaming anyone for anything, except those who yell "Blame
>>>> Game" over and over to obscure the facts, and then start flooding
>>>> the Internet with completely false information. In my view that is
>>>> dangerous, and someone must speak out against it. General Honore
>>>> has done so, and I applaud him for it.
>>>>
>>>> The current situation with Rita is exactly the same as the
>>>> situation with Katrina was, this many days before the hurricane
>>>> hit. FEMA is in action. Local governments are doing their best.
>>>> Pre-determined evacuation plans are being implemented on the local,
>>>> state and federal levels. Things have been learned in the
>>>> intervening 3 weeks, they are being applied, and we will surely
>>>> have less loss of life this time around.
>>>>
>>>> And that is the reason it is so important to get the facts right,
>>>> from the get-go, and not be lulled by a President who says,
>>>> wrongly, again and again, "There is plenty of time for us to figure
>>>> out what went wrong..." Well, there wasn't plenty of time to
>>>> figure out what went wrong, and luckily many people started trying
>>>> to figure it out and do something about it immediately..
>>>>
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb provided us a first hand account of what he witnessed. The
>>>>> man has been through hell and has still taken the time to help.
>>>>> Why are you berating him? He never claimed he was an expert.
>>>>>
>>>>> I must admit I have to chuckly every time I see Busch on TV. I
>>>>> think the guy is a clown. However he did not cause this. Not to
>>>>> make light but in some ways the less hands on .....the less he
>>>>> will screw up.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems obvious that there wasn't a sound evacuation plan. This
>>>>> is a local issue not federal. If we focus on seeking blame this
>>>>> will happen again. If we focus on how local governments can better
>>>>> prepare for these type emergencies the citizens will be better
>>>>> off. If there were protocol issues fix them. Blaming Bush solves
>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Horse shit and drinking.
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:47:12 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Driving a boat through muck does not qualify you as a
>>>>>> jurisdictional expert in Federal Emergency Management. What you
>>>>>> heard from people in the water, that they did what they were
>>>>>> supposed to do, is correct. However, FEMA must coordinate the
>>>>>> response to emergencies. That is its mandate. They don't need
>>>>>> to get permission from anyone else--that's their job when
>>>>>> emergencies occur.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FEMA was like a deer in the headlights. First responders were
>>>>>> turned away by FEMA officials in New Orleans. This did not
>>>>>> happen in New York. I think we all agree that the heads of FEMA
>>>>>> were incompetent political cronies. They will be gone. However,
>>>>>> their superiors in the Federal Government did not take this
>>>>>> matter seriously enough to interrupt what they were doing to
>>>>>> oversee what was obviously a disaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just like local officials in New York, the local officials in New
>>>>>> Orleans did their best and screwed up. We lost 100s of first
>>>>>> responders here in NYC due to the incompetence of our local
>>>>>> politicians. But we saved thousands due to the prompt, if not
>>>>>> always correct, actions of the Federal Government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Federal Government was on vacation this August, but, unlike
>>>>>> you, the individuals in positions of responsibility did not take
>>>>>> time off from their vacations to deal with an emergency while it
>>>>>> was happening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is part of a trend that has been noted often before. Let me
>>>>>> point out, yet again, that on August 6, 2001 President Bush
>>>>>> received a memo from the CIA, while vacationing on his ranch,
>>>>>> entitled: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US". The President
>>>>>> did not interrupt his vacation for that one, either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're leaving out one major factor in the comparison. The FAA
>>>>>>> has jurisdiction over flights. The Mayor of New Orleans has
>>>>>>> jurisdiction over the city, the Governor over the state of
>>>>>>> Louisiana. I'm going to repeat this, from what I heard at the
>>>>>>> scene, the Coast Guard in Alexandria was ready BEFORE the storm
>>>>>>> hit. Their services were offered to the state, the state
>>>>>>> declined, putting their game wardens in charge. Once the feds
>>>>>>> were released to act, they acted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a popular misconception for folks to talk about "not
>>>>>>> answering the phone" when the President is on "vacation." He has
>>>>>>> a phone when he's on vacation. He has an office when he's on
>>>>>>> vacation. It's that type of hyperbole that diminishes
>>>>>>> credibility for those that employ it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, I was on "vacation" when I was in New Orleans. I've got the
>>>>>>> pay stubs to prove it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>> 1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>> 1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bill at effros.com 9/20/2005 8:09:56 AM >>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In early 2001 FEMA identified the 3 most catastrophic situations
>>>>>>> it might some day have to address. They were:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. A terrorist attack on NYC.
>>>>>>> 2. A major earthquake in San Francisco.
>>>>>>> 3. A levee break in New Orleans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On September 11, 2001, 37 minutes after the take-off of the
>>>>>>> first hijacked airplane, the FAA requested that military
>>>>>>> aircraft scramble to help deal with the known hijacking. Within
>>>>>>> 9 minutes there were military aircraft in the sky. 4 minutes
>>>>>>> later, the military received notice that the airplane they were
>>>>>>> trying to find had just hit the World Trade Center. The
>>>>>>> President of the United States, on his way to a "Photo Op" in a
>>>>>>> school in Florida, was immediately informed. He told reporters
>>>>>>> before entering the school that he was aware of the fact that a
>>>>>>> plane had smashed into the World Trade Center. 3 minutes later
>>>>>>> the FAA determined that a second aircraft had been hijacked, and
>>>>>>> immediately the FAA began contacting and diverting airplanes. 7
>>>>>>> minutes later a different FAA flight controller called a
>>>>>>> different military installation to request help. A minute
>>>>>>> later, another FAA flight controller, in yet another part of the
>>>>>>> country called another military unit to request aircraft be
>>>>>>> scrambled. None of these flight controllers knew that the
>>>>>>> others had acted. The military did not know that it had
>>>>>>> received multiple requests. 8 minutes later there were multiple
>>>>>>> military fighter jets over Long Island. 5 minutes later the
>>>>>>> fighters were moved over Manhattan. A minute later jets were
>>>>>>> scrambled from Langly AFB in Virginia and sent up to NYC because
>>>>>>> the fighters over NYC were running low on fuel. 8 minutes later
>>>>>>> the FAA closed all NYC airports. 4 minutes later the Port
>>>>>>> Authority of NYC closed all bridges and tunnels. 1 minute later
>>>>>>> the FAA told Dulles air controllers to watch for incoming
>>>>>>> hijacked aircraft. 4 minutes later the military established a
>>>>>>> combat air patrol over Manhattan, and, at the same time, the FAA
>>>>>>> grounded all aircraft all over the country. 5 minutes later,
>>>>>>> the President of the United States went on National TV to
>>>>>>> announce that the country had suffered "an apparent terrorist
>>>>>>> attack". 15 minutes later the White House was evacuated. 12
>>>>>>> minutes later the President left Florida for an Air Force Base
>>>>>>> in Louisiana. 9 minutes later the South Tower of the World
>>>>>>> Trade Center collapsed. 5 minutes later part of the Pentagon
>>>>>>> collapsed. 9 minutes later the UN building was evacuated. 15
>>>>>>> minutes later the North Tower of the World Trade Center
>>>>>>> collapsed. 17 minutes later all Federal buildings in Washington
>>>>>>> DC were evacuated. 7 minutes later, all DC area airports were
>>>>>>> closed. 10 minutes later the Mayor of NYC ordered the
>>>>>>> evacuation of everyone south of the World Trade Center. 2 hours
>>>>>>> and 2 minutes later, the President of the United States,
>>>>>>> speaking from Barksdale AFB in Louisiana, said the US military
>>>>>>> has been put on high alert world wide. 44 minutes later the
>>>>>>> President of the United States flew to an Air Force base in
>>>>>>> Nebraska. 4 hours and 53 minutes later, Defense Secretary
>>>>>>> Rumsfeld announced that the Pentagon had re-opened and was
>>>>>>> conducting business. 13 minutes later the President returned to
>>>>>>> the White House from Omaha, Nebraska. By this time, FEMA was on
>>>>>>> the ground, inside both New York City and Washington DC
>>>>>>> coordinating the nation's response to the disaster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now let's compare that response to the Federal Government's
>>>>>>> response to Hurricane Katrina.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, August 26 the State of Louisiana declared a state of
>>>>>>> emergency because it was clear that hurricane Katrina was going
>>>>>>> to strike somewhere on the Louisiana coast. FEMA was
>>>>>>> automatically notified.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 27, FEMA took no action to mitigate what was
>>>>>>> sure to be a major disaster somewhere on the Gulf Coast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 28, the National Weather Service posted this
>>>>>>> warning under the headline :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ''Hurricane Katrina. A most powerful hurricane with
>>>>>>> unprecedented strength.".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps
>>>>>>> longer...Power outages will last for weeks...Water shortages
>>>>>>> will make human suffering incredible by modern standards.''
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The warning had been written years earlier. Only the name of
>>>>>>> the hurricane was inserted at the last minute. There was no
>>>>>>> question that the hurricane would strike somewhere along the
>>>>>>> Gulf Coast of the United States, resulting in massive loss of life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The President of the United States immediately issued a
>>>>>>> declaration of emergency for the Gulf Coast region. He also
>>>>>>> found time to cut a cake for John McCain, play a guitar for Mark
>>>>>>> Wills, deliver an address about V-J day, and stay at his ranch
>>>>>>> to continue his vacation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Mayor of New Orleans issued a mandatory evacuation order for
>>>>>>> the entire city.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, August 29, the hurricane hit, at 6:10 am narrowly
>>>>>>> missing New Orleans, but flattening several cities to the East.
>>>>>>> The loss of life in one small town in Mississippi was
>>>>>>> immediately known to be greater than the total loss of life
>>>>>>> resulting from 3 hurricanes that hit Florida the previous year
>>>>>>> which resulted in a massive and immediate federal disaster
>>>>>>> relief response just prior to a Presidential election in a state
>>>>>>> with 25 electoral votes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10,000 people who were unable to leave New Orleans were already
>>>>>>> being sheltered in the Superdome as part of the emergency
>>>>>>> evacuation procedure devised by disaster mitigation experts from
>>>>>>> FEMA. It was known that they had no food or water, and that it
>>>>>>> was the responsibility of FEMA to provide everything they would
>>>>>>> need to safely evacuate the victims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The President remained on vacation. The head of FEMA went to
>>>>>>> Baton Rouge. The Vice President remained on vacation. The Head
>>>>>>> of Homeland security remained on vacation. The Secretary of
>>>>>>> State remained on vacation. Congress remained on vacation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Local officials on the ground knew that their resources had been
>>>>>>> overwhelmed, and they knew they needed massive and immediate
>>>>>>> Federal assistance. Federal aid was the primary component of
>>>>>>> disaster response to a tragedy of this magnitude. But the
>>>>>>> Federal Government simply was not answering the phone. They
>>>>>>> were on vacation, and too busy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then the levee broke in New Orleans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually Rummy, I don't live in another country, nor am I
>>>>>>>> basing what I say on watching "the news much". I spoke
>>>>>>>> personally with the commander on duty at the Coast Guard
>>>>>>>> staging area in Alexandria. He had the resources in place,
>>>>>>>> waiting in Alexandria. He was waiting for permission FROM THE
>>>>>>>> STATE to send them in. The STATE chose to have their resources
>>>>>>>> in place, namely the Louisiana Fish and Wildlife Department
>>>>>>>> (yep, that's right Governor Blanco chose to put her state's
>>>>>>>> game wardens in charge of recovery, instead of the feds, who
>>>>>>>> are trained to do that.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was there friend, I saw it first hand. I saw the news cameras
>>>>>>>> on site at the barricades, in their air conditioned portables
>>>>>>>> studios. On the other hand, out in the streets, there were a
>>>>>>>> few print media folks, but very few. The only video crew I saw
>>>>>>>> "out in the field" was with the Air National Guard. The rest of
>>>>>>>> the folks didn't want to stray far from their portable studios.
>>>>>>>> And, in spite of your absolute belief that it was the news
>>>>>>>> media that brought about change is as misguided and misinformed
>>>>>>>> as the rest of the nonsense you seem to be subscribing to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, that wasn't the point of what I was saying at all. My
>>>>>>>> point was folks can stand around pointing fingers at others all
>>>>>>>> they want, but that gets NOTHING done. Before anyone complains
>>>>>>>> about what someone else did or did not do, they should ask
>>>>>>>> themselves what THEY did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I view the governments role to fill in where the individuals
>>>>>>>> can't (I can't personally build a highway, or field an army),
>>>>>>>> but that does NOT relieve the individual of their duty when the
>>>>>>>> need arises. I went to NO because I couldn't be me and NOT go.
>>>>>>>> My boss instructed me to stop thanking him for letting me take
>>>>>>>> off, that he did so because it's what he had to do. My wife and
>>>>>>>> children told me to stop apologizing for missing my wife's 50
>>>>>>>> birthday party, that they missed me, but that what I was doing
>>>>>>>> was more important.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everywhere I went, and this isn't hearing it from a television
>>>>>>>> reporter looking for ratings, or an ex-first lady trying to
>>>>>>>> position herself for the next presidential vacancy, EVERYWHERE
>>>>>>>> I went, I saw people first hand doing what they could do;
>>>>>>>> whether it was giving me some gas cans so we can put gas in our
>>>>>>>> DUKW, or handing a baby to our crew on the boat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THAT my friend, is what "we" are. We AREN'T the whimpering
>>>>>>>> whining media, or the jostling politicians looking to gain
>>>>>>>> ratings numbers on the Neilson or the latest poll on the backs
>>>>>>>> of those that lost everything.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, and for whatever it's worth, I'm still getting in boat time
>>>>>>>> too. Mast going up got delayed by a few days because of the
>>>>>>>> trip, but it went up today. It had to, our sail club is taking
>>>>>>>> a group of handicapped kids out sailing this weekend, and I
>>>>>>>> committed and need to be ready.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THAT's the country I live in, since you asked.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, go have your drink, and watch your game.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>>> 1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>>> 1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> R22RumRunner at aol.com 9/19/2005 8:54:09 PM >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>> You either live in a different country or don't watch the news
>>>>>>>> much. Our gov't sat on their collective hands and did nothing
>>>>>>>> for the people of NO for five, yes count them, five days. And
>>>>>>>> then it was only after the news media made them look as stupid
>>>>>>>> as they collectively are that they decided to finally do
>>>>>>>> something.
>>>>>>>> The governments own weather person said this was going to be a
>>>>>>>> devastating storm 24 hours before it struck. It certainly had
>>>>>>>> time to react, but no, those idiots in FEMA (not trained in
>>>>>>>> emergency management) didn't know what to do. Hell, I could go
>>>>>>>> on and on and rehash the same shit, but I won't. There's more
>>>>>>>> important things to attend to tonight, like watching football
>>>>>>>> and drinking. Remember, a shot in the glass is better than one
>>>>>>>> in the ass.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rummy
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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