[Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
Rik Sandberg
sanderico at earthlink.net
Fri Sep 23 09:52:27 EDT 2005
Bill,
You've got a pretty darn strange way of "agreeing"
> "This is the worst planning I've ever seen," said Judie Anderson, who
> covered just 45 miles in 12 hours after setting out from her home in
> the Houston suburb of LaPorte. "They say we've learned a lot from
> Hurricane Katrina. Well, you couldn't prove it by me."
>
> Bill Effros
I'm with Wally. Didn't seem like "agreement" to me either.
The gov't may have learned from Katrina, BUT it seems the people didn't.
They all act like a herd of cattle all trying to squeeze through the
barn door at the same time. Do any of them own a map? have they never
thought that there are state highways and county and even township roads
that go the same direction they want to go? No, a million of them just
mindlessly head for the freeway and can't understand why there is a
traffic problem.
All this reliance on the gov't is turning people into a bunch of
mindless idiots.
OH MY GOD .... there I go .... blaming the victims again.
Rik
Bill Effros wrote:
> Wally,
>
> I was agreeing with you. You made a point. I said I thought you were
> wrong. Then I saw this story. Then I said maybe you were right. Now
> you say I don't seem to understand....
>
> Bill Effros
>
> Wally Buck wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I guess Julie Anderson hasn't learn much as well. There are always
>> traffic jams when they evacuate large cities. The larger the
>> population the bigger the problem.
>>
>> She is 45 miles away from Houston, the storm isn't due until
>> tomorrow. Shut up and keep driving. It sounds like she will be safe.
>> She is whining already and not a drop of rain. This just goes to show
>> how difficult the task is.
>>
>> There will always be problems with an evacuation of this size. You
>> don't seem to understand this. Nothing iis perfect. People are free
>> to leave when ever they want. You don't have to wait for a
>> government order.
>>
>> Wally
>>
>>
>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
>>> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:18:59 -0400
>>>
>>> Wally,
>>>
>>> Maybe you were right. This from the Associated Press:
>>>
>>> "This is the worst planning I've ever seen," said Judie Anderson,
>>> who covered just 45 miles in 12 hours after setting out from her
>>> home in the Houston suburb of LaPorte. "They say we've learned a lot
>>> from Hurricane Katrina. Well, you couldn't prove it by me."
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>>
>>> Wally Buck wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill,
>>>>
>>>> I heard the mayors of Gavelston and Houston interviewed last night.
>>>> They were asked what changes they made to evac plan post Katrina.
>>>> The said basically none. They have spent years educating the public
>>>> about the dangers of hurricanes. They talked about how hard they
>>>> had trained for.
>>>>
>>>> I think the real lessons learned were from the citizens. I have a
>>>> fealing people will take these storms more serioulsy in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Wally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] P-Horse shit and drinking.
>>>>> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:48:22 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not mean to berate Herb, and I do understand how my comments
>>>>> could have been taken that way, and for that I apologize to Herb,
>>>>> and to the rest of the list.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I was trying to say was that people on the scene can tell us
>>>>> what they see, but that those first hand accounts should not be
>>>>> confused with expertise about obscure laws that do not apply, or a
>>>>> special knowledge of the sequence of events which the observer did
>>>>> not see.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Blind Men and the Elephant.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not blaming anyone for anything, except those who yell "Blame
>>>>> Game" over and over to obscure the facts, and then start flooding
>>>>> the Internet with completely false information. In my view that
>>>>> is dangerous, and someone must speak out against it. General
>>>>> Honore has done so, and I applaud him for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The current situation with Rita is exactly the same as the
>>>>> situation with Katrina was, this many days before the hurricane
>>>>> hit. FEMA is in action. Local governments are doing their best.
>>>>> Pre-determined evacuation plans are being implemented on the
>>>>> local, state and federal levels. Things have been learned in the
>>>>> intervening 3 weeks, they are being applied, and we will surely
>>>>> have less loss of life this time around.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is the reason it is so important to get the facts right,
>>>>> from the get-go, and not be lulled by a President who says,
>>>>> wrongly, again and again, "There is plenty of time for us to
>>>>> figure out what went wrong..." Well, there wasn't plenty of time
>>>>> to figure out what went wrong, and luckily many people started
>>>>> trying to figure it out and do something about it immediately..
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Herb provided us a first hand account of what he witnessed. The
>>>>>> man has been through hell and has still taken the time to help.
>>>>>> Why are you berating him? He never claimed he was an expert.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I must admit I have to chuckly every time I see Busch on TV. I
>>>>>> think the guy is a clown. However he did not cause this. Not to
>>>>>> make light but in some ways the less hands on .....the less he
>>>>>> will screw up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems obvious that there wasn't a sound evacuation plan. This
>>>>>> is a local issue not federal. If we focus on seeking blame this
>>>>>> will happen again. If we focus on how local governments can
>>>>>> better prepare for these type emergencies the citizens will be
>>>>>> better off. If there were protocol issues fix them. Blaming Bush
>>>>>> solves nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Horse shit and drinking.
>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:47:12 -0400
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Driving a boat through muck does not qualify you as a
>>>>>>> jurisdictional expert in Federal Emergency Management. What you
>>>>>>> heard from people in the water, that they did what they were
>>>>>>> supposed to do, is correct. However, FEMA must coordinate the
>>>>>>> response to emergencies. That is its mandate. They don't need
>>>>>>> to get permission from anyone else--that's their job when
>>>>>>> emergencies occur.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FEMA was like a deer in the headlights. First responders were
>>>>>>> turned away by FEMA officials in New Orleans. This did not
>>>>>>> happen in New York. I think we all agree that the heads of FEMA
>>>>>>> were incompetent political cronies. They will be gone.
>>>>>>> However, their superiors in the Federal Government did not take
>>>>>>> this matter seriously enough to interrupt what they were doing
>>>>>>> to oversee what was obviously a disaster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just like local officials in New York, the local officials in
>>>>>>> New Orleans did their best and screwed up. We lost 100s of
>>>>>>> first responders here in NYC due to the incompetence of our
>>>>>>> local politicians. But we saved thousands due to the prompt, if
>>>>>>> not always correct, actions of the Federal Government.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Federal Government was on vacation this August, but, unlike
>>>>>>> you, the individuals in positions of responsibility did not take
>>>>>>> time off from their vacations to deal with an emergency while it
>>>>>>> was happening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is part of a trend that has been noted often before. Let
>>>>>>> me point out, yet again, that on August 6, 2001 President Bush
>>>>>>> received a memo from the CIA, while vacationing on his ranch,
>>>>>>> entitled: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US". The President
>>>>>>> did not interrupt his vacation for that one, either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're leaving out one major factor in the comparison. The FAA
>>>>>>>> has jurisdiction over flights. The Mayor of New Orleans has
>>>>>>>> jurisdiction over the city, the Governor over the state of
>>>>>>>> Louisiana. I'm going to repeat this, from what I heard at the
>>>>>>>> scene, the Coast Guard in Alexandria was ready BEFORE the storm
>>>>>>>> hit. Their services were offered to the state, the state
>>>>>>>> declined, putting their game wardens in charge. Once the feds
>>>>>>>> were released to act, they acted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's a popular misconception for folks to talk about "not
>>>>>>>> answering the phone" when the President is on "vacation." He
>>>>>>>> has a phone when he's on vacation. He has an office when he's
>>>>>>>> on vacation. It's that type of hyperbole that diminishes
>>>>>>>> credibility for those that employ it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BTW, I was on "vacation" when I was in New Orleans. I've got
>>>>>>>> the pay stubs to prove it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>>> 1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>>> 1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> bill at effros.com 9/20/2005 8:09:56 AM >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In early 2001 FEMA identified the 3 most catastrophic
>>>>>>>> situations it might some day have to address. They were:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. A terrorist attack on NYC.
>>>>>>>> 2. A major earthquake in San Francisco.
>>>>>>>> 3. A levee break in New Orleans.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On September 11, 2001, 37 minutes after the take-off of the
>>>>>>>> first hijacked airplane, the FAA requested that military
>>>>>>>> aircraft scramble to help deal with the known hijacking.
>>>>>>>> Within 9 minutes there were military aircraft in the sky. 4
>>>>>>>> minutes later, the military received notice that the airplane
>>>>>>>> they were trying to find had just hit the World Trade Center.
>>>>>>>> The President of the United States, on his way to a "Photo Op"
>>>>>>>> in a school in Florida, was immediately informed. He told
>>>>>>>> reporters before entering the school that he was aware of the
>>>>>>>> fact that a plane had smashed into the World Trade Center. 3
>>>>>>>> minutes later the FAA determined that a second aircraft had
>>>>>>>> been hijacked, and immediately the FAA began contacting and
>>>>>>>> diverting airplanes. 7 minutes later a different FAA flight
>>>>>>>> controller called a different military installation to request
>>>>>>>> help. A minute later, another FAA flight controller, in yet
>>>>>>>> another part of the country called another military unit to
>>>>>>>> request aircraft be scrambled. None of these flight
>>>>>>>> controllers knew that the others had acted. The military did
>>>>>>>> not know that it had received multiple requests. 8 minutes
>>>>>>>> later there were multiple military fighter jets over Long
>>>>>>>> Island. 5 minutes later the fighters were moved over
>>>>>>>> Manhattan. A minute later jets were scrambled from Langly AFB
>>>>>>>> in Virginia and sent up to NYC because the fighters over NYC
>>>>>>>> were running low on fuel. 8 minutes later the FAA closed all
>>>>>>>> NYC airports. 4 minutes later the Port Authority of NYC closed
>>>>>>>> all bridges and tunnels. 1 minute later the FAA told Dulles
>>>>>>>> air controllers to watch for incoming hijacked aircraft. 4
>>>>>>>> minutes later the military established a combat air patrol over
>>>>>>>> Manhattan, and, at the same time, the FAA grounded all aircraft
>>>>>>>> all over the country. 5 minutes later, the President of the
>>>>>>>> United States went on National TV to announce that the country
>>>>>>>> had suffered "an apparent terrorist attack". 15 minutes later
>>>>>>>> the White House was evacuated. 12 minutes later the President
>>>>>>>> left Florida for an Air Force Base in Louisiana. 9 minutes
>>>>>>>> later the South Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. 5
>>>>>>>> minutes later part of the Pentagon collapsed. 9 minutes later
>>>>>>>> the UN building was evacuated. 15 minutes later the North
>>>>>>>> Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. 17 minutes later
>>>>>>>> all Federal buildings in Washington DC were evacuated. 7
>>>>>>>> minutes later, all DC area airports were closed. 10 minutes
>>>>>>>> later the Mayor of NYC ordered the evacuation of everyone south
>>>>>>>> of the World Trade Center. 2 hours and 2 minutes later, the
>>>>>>>> President of the United States, speaking from Barksdale AFB in
>>>>>>>> Louisiana, said the US military has been put on high alert
>>>>>>>> world wide. 44 minutes later the President of the United
>>>>>>>> States flew to an Air Force base in Nebraska. 4 hours and 53
>>>>>>>> minutes later, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld announced that the
>>>>>>>> Pentagon had re-opened and was conducting business. 13 minutes
>>>>>>>> later the President returned to the White House from Omaha,
>>>>>>>> Nebraska. By this time, FEMA was on the ground, inside both
>>>>>>>> New York City and Washington DC coordinating the nation's
>>>>>>>> response to the disaster.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now let's compare that response to the Federal Government's
>>>>>>>> response to Hurricane Katrina.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 26 the State of Louisiana declared a state of
>>>>>>>> emergency because it was clear that hurricane Katrina was going
>>>>>>>> to strike somewhere on the Louisiana coast. FEMA was
>>>>>>>> automatically notified.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 27, FEMA took no action to mitigate what
>>>>>>>> was sure to be a major disaster somewhere on the Gulf Coast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 28, the National Weather Service posted this
>>>>>>>> warning under the headline :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ''Hurricane Katrina. A most powerful hurricane with
>>>>>>>> unprecedented strength.".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps
>>>>>>>> longer...Power outages will last for weeks...Water shortages
>>>>>>>> will make human suffering incredible by modern standards.''
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The warning had been written years earlier. Only the name of
>>>>>>>> the hurricane was inserted at the last minute. There was no
>>>>>>>> question that the hurricane would strike somewhere along the
>>>>>>>> Gulf Coast of the United States, resulting in massive loss of
>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The President of the United States immediately issued a
>>>>>>>> declaration of emergency for the Gulf Coast region. He also
>>>>>>>> found time to cut a cake for John McCain, play a guitar for
>>>>>>>> Mark Wills, deliver an address about V-J day, and stay at his
>>>>>>>> ranch to continue his vacation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Mayor of New Orleans issued a mandatory evacuation order
>>>>>>>> for the entire city.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, August 29, the hurricane hit, at 6:10 am narrowly
>>>>>>>> missing New Orleans, but flattening several cities to the
>>>>>>>> East. The loss of life in one small town in Mississippi was
>>>>>>>> immediately known to be greater than the total loss of life
>>>>>>>> resulting from 3 hurricanes that hit Florida the previous year
>>>>>>>> which resulted in a massive and immediate federal disaster
>>>>>>>> relief response just prior to a Presidential election in a
>>>>>>>> state with 25 electoral votes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 10,000 people who were unable to leave New Orleans were already
>>>>>>>> being sheltered in the Superdome as part of the emergency
>>>>>>>> evacuation procedure devised by disaster mitigation experts
>>>>>>>> from FEMA. It was known that they had no food or water, and
>>>>>>>> that it was the responsibility of FEMA to provide everything
>>>>>>>> they would need to safely evacuate the victims.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The President remained on vacation. The head of FEMA went to
>>>>>>>> Baton Rouge. The Vice President remained on vacation. The
>>>>>>>> Head of Homeland security remained on vacation. The Secretary
>>>>>>>> of State remained on vacation. Congress remained on vacation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Local officials on the ground knew that their resources had
>>>>>>>> been overwhelmed, and they knew they needed massive and
>>>>>>>> immediate Federal assistance. Federal aid was the primary
>>>>>>>> component of disaster response to a tragedy of this magnitude.
>>>>>>>> But the Federal Government simply was not answering the phone.
>>>>>>>> They were on vacation, and too busy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then the levee broke in New Orleans.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually Rummy, I don't live in another country, nor am I
>>>>>>>>> basing what I say on watching "the news much". I spoke
>>>>>>>>> personally with the commander on duty at the Coast Guard
>>>>>>>>> staging area in Alexandria. He had the resources in place,
>>>>>>>>> waiting in Alexandria. He was waiting for permission FROM THE
>>>>>>>>> STATE to send them in. The STATE chose to have their resources
>>>>>>>>> in place, namely the Louisiana Fish and Wildlife Department
>>>>>>>>> (yep, that's right Governor Blanco chose to put her state's
>>>>>>>>> game wardens in charge of recovery, instead of the feds, who
>>>>>>>>> are trained to do that.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was there friend, I saw it first hand. I saw the news
>>>>>>>>> cameras on site at the barricades, in their air conditioned
>>>>>>>>> portables studios. On the other hand, out in the streets,
>>>>>>>>> there were a few print media folks, but very few. The only
>>>>>>>>> video crew I saw "out in the field" was with the Air National
>>>>>>>>> Guard. The rest of the folks didn't want to stray far from
>>>>>>>>> their portable studios. And, in spite of your absolute belief
>>>>>>>>> that it was the news media that brought about change is as
>>>>>>>>> misguided and misinformed as the rest of the nonsense you seem
>>>>>>>>> to be subscribing to.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, that wasn't the point of what I was saying at all. My
>>>>>>>>> point was folks can stand around pointing fingers at others
>>>>>>>>> all they want, but that gets NOTHING done. Before anyone
>>>>>>>>> complains about what someone else did or did not do, they
>>>>>>>>> should ask themselves what THEY did.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I view the governments role to fill in where the individuals
>>>>>>>>> can't (I can't personally build a highway, or field an army),
>>>>>>>>> but that does NOT relieve the individual of their duty when
>>>>>>>>> the need arises. I went to NO because I couldn't be me and NOT
>>>>>>>>> go. My boss instructed me to stop thanking him for letting me
>>>>>>>>> take off, that he did so because it's what he had to do. My
>>>>>>>>> wife and children told me to stop apologizing for missing my
>>>>>>>>> wife's 50 birthday party, that they missed me, but that what I
>>>>>>>>> was doing was more important.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Everywhere I went, and this isn't hearing it from a television
>>>>>>>>> reporter looking for ratings, or an ex-first lady trying to
>>>>>>>>> position herself for the next presidential vacancy, EVERYWHERE
>>>>>>>>> I went, I saw people first hand doing what they could do;
>>>>>>>>> whether it was giving me some gas cans so we can put gas in
>>>>>>>>> our DUKW, or handing a baby to our crew on the boat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> THAT my friend, is what "we" are. We AREN'T the whimpering
>>>>>>>>> whining media, or the jostling politicians looking to gain
>>>>>>>>> ratings numbers on the Neilson or the latest poll on the backs
>>>>>>>>> of those that lost everything.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh, and for whatever it's worth, I'm still getting in boat
>>>>>>>>> time too. Mast going up got delayed by a few days because of
>>>>>>>>> the trip, but it went up today. It had to, our sail club is
>>>>>>>>> taking a group of handicapped kids out sailing this weekend,
>>>>>>>>> and I committed and need to be ready.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> THAT's the country I live in, since you asked.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, go have your drink, and watch your game.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S/V O'Jure
>>>>>>>>> 1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>>>>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>>>>> 1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>>>>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> R22RumRunner at aol.com 9/19/2005 8:54:09 PM >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>>> You either live in a different country or don't watch the news
>>>>>>>>> much. Our gov't sat on their collective hands and did nothing
>>>>>>>>> for the people of NO for five, yes count them, five days. And
>>>>>>>>> then it was only after the news media made them look as
>>>>>>>>> stupid as they collectively are that they decided to finally
>>>>>>>>> do something.
>>>>>>>>> The governments own weather person said this was going to be a
>>>>>>>>> devastating storm 24 hours before it struck. It certainly had
>>>>>>>>> time to react, but no, those idiots in FEMA (not trained in
>>>>>>>>> emergency management) didn't know what to do. Hell, I could
>>>>>>>>> go on and on and rehash the same shit, but I won't. There's
>>>>>>>>> more important things to attend to tonight, like watching
>>>>>>>>> football and drinking. Remember, a shot in the glass is better
>>>>>>>>> than one in the ass.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rummy
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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