[Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water, Trunk Seal Repairs and replying to Bob and Rummy

[David Culp]

Thanks Bob:

Sounds like the exact same seal issue with my boat.  However, my bilge and
ballast appear to be in very fine shape, so much so that once out of the
water, the remaining bilge water would not flow out through the entrance
spot. I ended up having to sponge out the bilge because the water wouldn't
drain.  Still, I did locate the loose spot on the bottom hull so I know
where to start looking.

I have the same Don Casey books and have done some glass work on boats
before which turned out pretty good; but as you say, it's hard to get to and
work on it sitting on the trailer.  Where as the shop can lift it up in a
sling, in a nice warm warehouse and walk underneath it with nice tools
ideally suited to the purpose.  I have half a mind to go ahead and just
expose the whole seam all the way around the trunk and make sure that I
don't have separation in other places, but on the other hand why go looking
for trouble that probably isn't there and paying more?  Thoughts on this?

Apparently, it is a slow process until finally the water finds a path
through the glass as it breaks down, then it just flows in and out.

Maybe if I go all the way around the area of the seal and do a very thorough
visual inspection, looking for any evidence and tapping for dead spots that
would be enough.  Like Rummy said, maybe a previous owner grounded it hard
and pulled something loose in just this one area.  Anyway, you said you used
thickened epoxy.  Which additive did you use to thicken it?  Sounds like
yours is fixed and I want to do this one in the same way.

By the way, Rummy, I'm in Texas near Austin on Lake LBJ.

Cheers,
David








Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:38:10 -0800 (PST)
From: bobmellor <rhmello at aol.com>
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water and A "racing" Rhodes (and a
       questioon for Rummy)
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <7693629.post at talk.nabble.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


David...

I had the some issues with my well used '80 I bought this past spring.  Both
a leaking cap (there was no gasket at all, just sealant of some type that
time had turned to slime) and leaks where the trunk was joined to the hull
at the bottom.

As Stan said, the clue is watching where the water comes out, not in.  In my
case, when I pulled the boat out of the water, the bilge drained completely,
indicating it was more than just the cap gasket (which should have left
water in the bilge up to the top of the trunk).  The leaky seam area stayed
wet and dripping much longer that the rest of the hull..  Probing the wet
area showed the "wallpaper peel" -  much more obvious when it is wet than
when dry.

I first removed the cap, cleaned everything well, re-sealed the pennant hose
fitting, replaced all hardware, replaced the rope, pennant hose and clamp
and put it back on with a gasket kit I got from Stan.

"Wallpaper that has come loose from the wall" is an excellent description of
the bottom leak.  Peeling the edge of the "wallpaper" back began to reveal
spots where the seam between the trunk and hull were open 1/8th of an inch
or more, allowing water to flow in and out of the hull pretty freely.  I let
it dry out, then ground out all along and inside the edges of the open
seams.  I forced thickened epoxy in the openings as I could, then added a
couple of layers of glass tape and epoxy along the seams.

(one very helpfull hint.. if doing epoxy work laying on your back under a
trailered boat make sure you don't rest the back of your head in whatever
you have the uncured epoxy in (such as a plastic picnic plate)... BIG
mistake.)

Lastly, Inside the hull, I replaced some disintegrated concrete around the
trunk, let it dry, and sealed that area all up with some epoxy and glass.

I'm learning as I go (with a lot of help from this info on this list, West
System epoxy guides, and Don Casey's books).  But so far limited in-water
testing has shown the bilge to remain dry as a bone.

Before I paint in spring, i will need to make sure everything is completey
dry...

Takes a bit bit of work, but you can get it sealed up.

(rummy... seems that have experience with this issue...  any suggestions or
additional work I should do before i finish it all up?  I for sure do not
want to have to do this again.)

Bob Mellor




David Culp wrote:
>
> Thanks for the background information Stan:
>
> What you say makes perfect sense and I will put water back in the bilge if
> it becomes necessary to locate the leak again.  In the meantime, further
> information will shed more light and perhaps help others in the future.
>
> First, this boat was in the water for 2 years without being pulled by the
> previous owner.  Before purchase, a professional, underwater survey was
> done
> in an attempt to assess the condition of the bottom hull.  The report
> found
> that the hull was in good condition for the most part with the existence
> of
> 5 small blisters.  After purchase, I had the bottom inspected again and
> repainted of course.  The inspection revealed 5 small blisters and in
> addition, 20 very tiny ones.   All were easily ground out and repaired.
> The
> shop personnel told me that this was absolutely nothing to worry about and
> things were generally in good shape. However, they did point out that the
> seal area on the port side of the trunk where it appeared that some
> blistering had taken place was a concern and they attempted to do
> something
> about it.  In other words, a lot of grinding was done in the area of the
> trunk seal and it was resealed.  At least, we thought we got it.  Maybe we
> didn't.
>
> After finding water flowing into the bilge, I pulled the boat and
> yesterday
> was able to get underneath and do a thorough inspection of the suspect
> area.  I have found in that same area on the bottom of the hull that looks
> absolutely normal by the way, that when you run your fingers across it, it
> feels just like wallpaper that has come loose from a wall.   The area is
> not
> right up against the trunk, but if memory serves me, it is this same area
> of
> concern in the seal area.
>
> Perhaps I am naive, but I am not overly concerned about this.   As Stan
> says, I believe some " dental work" is all that is necessary to fix this.
> For whatever reason, I have some de-lamination in the seal area and it
> will
> have to be repaired.   I'll make sure that we take a very close look at
> the
> whole trunk seal area to make sure it's not happening in other areas.
>
> The lessons for me from this reinforce what I have always thought:
>
> Periodically inspect the bilge for water.  I look in there after every
> sail.  Stan made it easy to do and I was on top of this problem right
> away.
>
> No matter how wonderful you think your bottom job is, the boat should be
> pulled at least once a year, the hull cleaned and inspected even if you
> just
> do it yourself.  Again, Stan has made taking the boat in and out of the
> water easy so there is no excuse not to. I found this problem by just
> running my hands over the hull.  Tapping around with a blunt object
> looking
> for dead spots is effective also, I'm told.  I would also take this
> opportunity to lower the mast and examine the shrouds, stays and the other
> structural hardware to insure its integrity.
>
> Finally, I have found that when my sailboat is in the water, I am only
> interested in one thing-sailing!  When it's on the trailer, then I can
> discipline myself to look around and fix the little things. I will be
> doing
> this while the boat is out this time.  I am also going to pull the sails
> off
> and send them to Sail Care to be refurbished.
>
> So looking at the silver-lining, at least I got a good summer out of it
> and
> won't miss much with the boat out of water for the winter.  It needed to
> come out anyway so the sails could go to Sail Care.
>
> Stan, I would love to buy a new boat from you.  Unfortunately, my budget
> doesn't allow it at present.  However, how are you coming with the
> "racing"
> version?  I love my boat as it is, but I have to admit it would be fun to
> have it set up more like a racer.  I took a bunch of stuff out of the boat
> to expose the trunk including some wood structure to trouble-shoot this
> problem.  This reduced the weight and then we sailed it over to the ramp
> to
> take it out.   Wow, this is potentially a very fast boat!  I could really
> tell the difference even by just the small amount of weight that I had
> taken
> out.  I can only imagine how much fun it would be if you really stripped
> it
> down.
>
> Thanks to Stan and everyone and I will let the list know what the final
> verdict is when we open it up.
>
> David
>
>
> Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:47:05 -0500
> From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Message-ID: <005b01c71610$11189520$f76cf4cd at rhodes>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>        reply-type=response
>
> David,
>
> You cannot determine a leak by seeing where water is coming from inside
> the
> boat.  A mistake many make - forget it.   The few exceptions are: any
> water
> oozing out around the cb trunk/cap neoprene gasket or around any thru hull
> fittings.
>
> Leaks through the fiberglass hull are extremely rare.
> The only ones I have ever seen are where someone had inadvertently drilled
> a
> hull through the glass.
>
> In older boats (ones where we had the hulls built by contractors) we have
> found some faults in the sealing of the centerboard trunk (a separate
> molded
> entity) into the bottom of the keel (which is part of the fiberglass hull
> lay-up).   The positive way to determine if this is the source of a leak
> is
> to put water into the boat and see if any water leaves the boat at this
> joint seam around the bottom of the cb slot in the keel. If this is the
> cause of a leak, where water actually leaves the hull (not where it runs
> along the hull and finally drops off) is the fault area.  If this is the
> problem location, a dentist can fix it.  Drill out the problem area and
> fill
> it with an epoxy such as Marine Tex or others.   A water test by putting
> water back inside the boat will show whether the epoxy filling has stopped
> that particular leak area.
>
> As far as we know, none of the boats that have had their cb trunks
> installed
> at our plant have ever leaked, not that we are suggesting you buy a new
> one
> of course....
>
> You can call me if you want to go over this.
>
> stan/gbi.
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>

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