[Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water, Trunk Seal Repairs and replying to Bob and Rummy

[bobmellor]

David

I used west system epoxy, with their colloidal silica filler for thickening
and added strength .. 

Regarding the seam on the other side of the trunk, mine also looks ok, but i
think as long as I'm at it I will expose that seam as well just to be
sure.....   may end up a waste of time, but I only want to do this once.

Fun and games....

Bob M


David Culp wrote:
> 
> Thanks Bob:
> 
> Sounds like the exact same seal issue with my boat.  However, my bilge and
> ballast appear to be in very fine shape, so much so that once out of the
> water, the remaining bilge water would not flow out through the entrance
> spot. I ended up having to sponge out the bilge because the water wouldn't
> drain.  Still, I did locate the loose spot on the bottom hull so I know
> where to start looking.
> 
> I have the same Don Casey books and have done some glass work on boats
> before which turned out pretty good; but as you say, it's hard to get to
> and
> work on it sitting on the trailer.  Where as the shop can lift it up in a
> sling, in a nice warm warehouse and walk underneath it with nice tools
> ideally suited to the purpose.  I have half a mind to go ahead and just
> expose the whole seam all the way around the trunk and make sure that I
> don't have separation in other places, but on the other hand why go
> looking
> for trouble that probably isn't there and paying more?  Thoughts on this?
> 
> Apparently, it is a slow process until finally the water finds a path
> through the glass as it breaks down, then it just flows in and out.
> 
> Maybe if I go all the way around the area of the seal and do a very
> thorough
> visual inspection, looking for any evidence and tapping for dead spots
> that
> would be enough.  Like Rummy said, maybe a previous owner grounded it hard
> and pulled something loose in just this one area.  Anyway, you said you
> used
> thickened epoxy.  Which additive did you use to thicken it?  Sounds like
> yours is fixed and I want to do this one in the same way.
> 
> By the way, Rummy, I'm in Texas near Austin on Lake LBJ.
> 
> Cheers,
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:38:10 -0800 (PST)
> From: bobmellor <rhmello at aol.com>
> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water and A "racing" Rhodes (and a
>        questioon for Rummy)
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Message-ID: <7693629.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> 
> David...
> 
> I had the some issues with my well used '80 I bought this past spring. 
> Both
> a leaking cap (there was no gasket at all, just sealant of some type that
> time had turned to slime) and leaks where the trunk was joined to the hull
> at the bottom.
> 
> As Stan said, the clue is watching where the water comes out, not in.  In
> my
> case, when I pulled the boat out of the water, the bilge drained
> completely,
> indicating it was more than just the cap gasket (which should have left
> water in the bilge up to the top of the trunk).  The leaky seam area
> stayed
> wet and dripping much longer that the rest of the hull..  Probing the wet
> area showed the "wallpaper peel" -  much more obvious when it is wet than
> when dry.
> 
> I first removed the cap, cleaned everything well, re-sealed the pennant
> hose
> fitting, replaced all hardware, replaced the rope, pennant hose and clamp
> and put it back on with a gasket kit I got from Stan.
> 
> "Wallpaper that has come loose from the wall" is an excellent description
> of
> the bottom leak.  Peeling the edge of the "wallpaper" back began to reveal
> spots where the seam between the trunk and hull were open 1/8th of an inch
> or more, allowing water to flow in and out of the hull pretty freely.  I
> let
> it dry out, then ground out all along and inside the edges of the open
> seams.  I forced thickened epoxy in the openings as I could, then added a
> couple of layers of glass tape and epoxy along the seams.
> 
> (one very helpfull hint.. if doing epoxy work laying on your back under a
> trailered boat make sure you don't rest the back of your head in whatever
> you have the uncured epoxy in (such as a plastic picnic plate)... BIG
> mistake.)
> 
> Lastly, Inside the hull, I replaced some disintegrated concrete around the
> trunk, let it dry, and sealed that area all up with some epoxy and glass.
> 
> I'm learning as I go (with a lot of help from this info on this list, West
> System epoxy guides, and Don Casey's books).  But so far limited in-water
> testing has shown the bilge to remain dry as a bone.
> 
> Before I paint in spring, i will need to make sure everything is completey
> dry...
> 
> Takes a bit bit of work, but you can get it sealed up.
> 
> (rummy... seems that have experience with this issue...  any suggestions
> or
> additional work I should do before i finish it all up?  I for sure do not
> want to have to do this again.)
> 
> Bob Mellor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Culp wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the background information Stan:
>>
>> What you say makes perfect sense and I will put water back in the bilge
>> if
>> it becomes necessary to locate the leak again.  In the meantime, further
>> information will shed more light and perhaps help others in the future.
>>
>> First, this boat was in the water for 2 years without being pulled by the
>> previous owner.  Before purchase, a professional, underwater survey was
>> done
>> in an attempt to assess the condition of the bottom hull.  The report
>> found
>> that the hull was in good condition for the most part with the existence
>> of
>> 5 small blisters.  After purchase, I had the bottom inspected again and
>> repainted of course.  The inspection revealed 5 small blisters and in
>> addition, 20 very tiny ones.   All were easily ground out and repaired.
>> The
>> shop personnel told me that this was absolutely nothing to worry about
>> and
>> things were generally in good shape. However, they did point out that the
>> seal area on the port side of the trunk where it appeared that some
>> blistering had taken place was a concern and they attempted to do
>> something
>> about it.  In other words, a lot of grinding was done in the area of the
>> trunk seal and it was resealed.  At least, we thought we got it.  Maybe
>> we
>> didn't.
>>
>> After finding water flowing into the bilge, I pulled the boat and
>> yesterday
>> was able to get underneath and do a thorough inspection of the suspect
>> area.  I have found in that same area on the bottom of the hull that
>> looks
>> absolutely normal by the way, that when you run your fingers across it,
>> it
>> feels just like wallpaper that has come loose from a wall.   The area is
>> not
>> right up against the trunk, but if memory serves me, it is this same area
>> of
>> concern in the seal area.
>>
>> Perhaps I am naive, but I am not overly concerned about this.   As Stan
>> says, I believe some " dental work" is all that is necessary to fix this.
>> For whatever reason, I have some de-lamination in the seal area and it
>> will
>> have to be repaired.   I'll make sure that we take a very close look at
>> the
>> whole trunk seal area to make sure it's not happening in other areas.
>>
>> The lessons for me from this reinforce what I have always thought:
>>
>> Periodically inspect the bilge for water.  I look in there after every
>> sail.  Stan made it easy to do and I was on top of this problem right
>> away.
>>
>> No matter how wonderful you think your bottom job is, the boat should be
>> pulled at least once a year, the hull cleaned and inspected even if you
>> just
>> do it yourself.  Again, Stan has made taking the boat in and out of the
>> water easy so there is no excuse not to. I found this problem by just
>> running my hands over the hull.  Tapping around with a blunt object
>> looking
>> for dead spots is effective also, I'm told.  I would also take this
>> opportunity to lower the mast and examine the shrouds, stays and the
>> other
>> structural hardware to insure its integrity.
>>
>> Finally, I have found that when my sailboat is in the water, I am only
>> interested in one thing-sailing!  When it's on the trailer, then I can
>> discipline myself to look around and fix the little things. I will be
>> doing
>> this while the boat is out this time.  I am also going to pull the sails
>> off
>> and send them to Sail Care to be refurbished.
>>
>> So looking at the silver-lining, at least I got a good summer out of it
>> and
>> won't miss much with the boat out of water for the winter.  It needed to
>> come out anyway so the sails could go to Sail Care.
>>
>> Stan, I would love to buy a new boat from you.  Unfortunately, my budget
>> doesn't allow it at present.  However, how are you coming with the
>> "racing"
>> version?  I love my boat as it is, but I have to admit it would be fun to
>> have it set up more like a racer.  I took a bunch of stuff out of the
>> boat
>> to expose the trunk including some wood structure to trouble-shoot this
>> problem.  This reduced the weight and then we sailed it over to the ramp
>> to
>> take it out.   Wow, this is potentially a very fast boat!  I could really
>> tell the difference even by just the small amount of weight that I had
>> taken
>> out.  I can only imagine how much fun it would be if you really stripped
>> it
>> down.
>>
>> Thanks to Stan and everyone and I will let the list know what the final
>> verdict is when we open it up.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:47:05 -0500
>> From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] RE: Bilge Water
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Message-ID: <005b01c71610$11189520$f76cf4cd at rhodes>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>        reply-type=response
>>
>> David,
>>
>> You cannot determine a leak by seeing where water is coming from inside
>> the
>> boat.  A mistake many make - forget it.   The few exceptions are: any
>> water
>> oozing out around the cb trunk/cap neoprene gasket or around any thru
>> hull
>> fittings.
>>
>> Leaks through the fiberglass hull are extremely rare.
>> The only ones I have ever seen are where someone had inadvertently
>> drilled
>> a
>> hull through the glass.
>>
>> In older boats (ones where we had the hulls built by contractors) we have
>> found some faults in the sealing of the centerboard trunk (a separate
>> molded
>> entity) into the bottom of the keel (which is part of the fiberglass hull
>> lay-up).   The positive way to determine if this is the source of a leak
>> is
>> to put water into the boat and see if any water leaves the boat at this
>> joint seam around the bottom of the cb slot in the keel. If this is the
>> cause of a leak, where water actually leaves the hull (not where it runs
>> along the hull and finally drops off) is the fault area.  If this is the
>> problem location, a dentist can fix it.  Drill out the problem area and
>> fill
>> it with an epoxy such as Marine Tex or others.   A water test by putting
>> water back inside the boat will show whether the epoxy filling has
>> stopped
>> that particular leak area.
>>
>> As far as we know, none of the boats that have had their cb trunks
>> installed
>> at our plant have ever leaked, not that we are suggesting you buy a new
>> one
>> of course....
>>
>> You can call me if you want to go over this.
>>
>> stan/gbi.
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>>
> 
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