[Rhodes22-list] BR Panels

Fri Feb 3 10:06:29 EST 2006

Slim,

Before we start openly publishing specifications, I think we must 
resolve the Intellectual Property issues between ourselves.  Developing 
panel specs is the key dimension, along with the fact that Stan now 
favors a slightly different frame construction than the one used on your 
boat.

I assume we will find a way to proceed, in which case we will want a 
more detailed narrative from you if you have the time to provide one.  
Also, I hope your panels and frame are in a place where you can make 
measurements for us.

Bill Effros

Slim wrote:

>Dave,
>
>Not true.  That's exactly what I have--solid panels OR screens the same
>size--a la carte.
>
>Slim
>
>On 2/2/06 10:16 PM, "David Bradley" <dwbrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Bill, one clarification.  Stan does not have a completed design for
>>the interchangeable panels, but believes it is the right concept to
>>develop.  The idea we kicked around was to make the side panels as
>>similar as possible to allow for maximum flexibility and lowest cost,
>>then let people buy a la carte.  I think this is a more evolved
>>concept than what Slim has now, but as you say, it's headed in that
>>direction.
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>On 2/2/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Dave,
>>>
>>>How exciting!  Nice job.  Couldn't have hoped for better!
>>>
>>>Slim,
>>>
>>>The pictures posted were fine for us all to get a look at your rig.  It
>>>is very different from the boom room posted on the GB site, and I think
>>>most of us couldn't understand what was wrong with it as far as Stan was
>>>concerned.  It looked good to us, and several people took the time to
>>>say so.  Clearly you get a lot of use out of it, and you are in a
>>>position to give us lots of pointers.  Yours is the prototype, and we
>>>will listen more closely than usual to what you have to say on this matter.
>>>
>>>As soon as I have time, I will post pictures I have gathered showing
>>>dodger/awning combinations developed by marine canvas fabricators.  This
>>>is the approach Stan seems to have rejected, and that's good enough for
>>>me.  These designs seem to run in the $5000+ range.  I am posting them
>>>only for reference.
>>>
>>>As I understand Dave's report, Stan has developed a fairly simple set of
>>>interchangeable panels that will work on any R-22, and maybe many other
>>>boats as well.  He has advised us to stay away from the costly marine
>>>fabricators and develop local talent to produce a standard product.
>>>
>>>Stan feels the load bearing frame can be improved, without the need to
>>>change the fabric panels--so we can develop patterns without regard to
>>>the final frame design--the frame must fit the panels, and not the other
>>>way around.  One size panels fits all size boats.  No prior purchase
>>>necessary.
>>>
>>>OK -- so who is still in?  I'm in for every panel we make.  I know Dave
>>>is in.  Slim has a PVC frame we can use as a frame pattern and
>>>prototype.  What material shall we use for the first frame we make?  Is
>>>wood an option for a prototype?  (We have people on the list who are
>>>very good with wood.)  Stainless Steel?  Aluminum?  Can we use
>>>telescoping boat poles with custom fittings on the ends to link them
>>>together?
>>>
>>>How much do we think this will cost?  We have to leave enough money to
>>>pay for replacement frames for early failed prototypes.  Can the panels
>>>be made of better or lesser materials depending on the intended use?
>>>
>>>First we have to sort out who is still in.  The project will move
>>>forward even if the answer is "nobody but Bill".  Early adopters will
>>>buy at cost, and their needs will be more heavily factored into the
>>>final design of the project.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all who have helped get us to this point.  Your input,
>>>thoughts, grumblings will improve the final design--please keep them coming.
>>>
>>>I'm going off to look at Slim's pictures again.  The ones I have show a
>>>lot of detail (I work on a 20" screen, and there is a lot of detail in
>>>what I have downloaded.)  If I need to see more, I will surely ask.
>>>Luckily, Stan has already seen what Slim has, and that's probably the
>>>most important thing.
>>>
>>>Back to work.  I'm still running behind.
>>>
>>>Bill Effros
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>David Bradley wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I had the great pleasure of visiting Stan and Rose yesterday at GBI
>>>>world headquarters in Edenton.  In between looking at my beautiful new
>>>>R22 in mid-production and a nice dinner (at Waterman's), we talked at
>>>>length about the boom room project.
>>>>
>>>>At the risk of not relaying it completely accurately, here is Stan's
>>>>thinking on a "best" boom room design.  (Stan, please correct me as
>>>>needed.)
>>>>
>>>>Boom Room Design Parameters:
>>>>
>>>>1.  Primary use is for overnight camping, and design should maximize
>>>>benefits for this primary usage.
>>>>
>>>>2.  Not integrated with Pop Top Enclosure - removes complexity factor
>>>>and improves economics/ease of set-up.
>>>>
>>>>3.  Fabric is sail cloth, with roof panel treated for water resistance.
>>>>
>>>>4.  Roof panel rests on top of boom as main support beam.
>>>>
>>>>5.  Must have rigid frame at roof panel perimeter; other roof support
>>>>members TBD.
>>>>       a.  Evaluate frame materials for lightweight rigid frame that
>>>>is easy to store
>>>>       b.  Consider aluminum tubes with crimp/socket connections, and
>>>>shock cords
>>>>       c.  Explore design for "yokes" to fit over boom as supporting
>>>>"rafters"
>>>>            (see drawings if I can figure out how to attach)
>>>>
>>>>6.  Multiple side/front/rear panels with optional screen and clear
>>>>plastic sections.
>>>>
>>>>7.  Side/rear panels zip in place and snap to gunwale; taught snapped
>>>>panels provide lateral roof support; no need to attach to stays.
>>>>       a.  Lower boom slightly to assemble, then raise boom to tension
>>>>panels
>>>>       b.  If using roof panel only as shade tent, run cords/straps
>>>>from perimeter
>>>>            frame to gunwales for lateral support
>>>>
>>>>8.  Front panel snaps across cabin trunk top, leaving hatches outside boom
>>>>room
>>>>
>>>>9.  Forward edge is in front of mast and inside forward side shrouds;
>>>>aft side shrouds are disconnected for boom room set-up; topping lift
>>>>line runs next to mast; roof panel seals around mast.
>>>>
>>>>10.  Rear panel fastens inside rear stays and stern rail and snaps to
>>>>gunwale, with enough tension to ensure rain will slide down the angeld
>>>>surface; evaluate whether a "shoulder" can be created by adding ties
>>>>to stern rail (similar to how an umbrella tent has outside ties to the
>>>>exterior frame).
>>>>
>>>>Net, the design that Slim has (which Stan made for the original owner)
>>>>is pretty close to what Stan thinks is optimal.  The idea of multiple
>>>>panel options (solid, screen and clear) gives it the Rhodes
>>>>flexibility and quality, while keeping sizes down.  Where he has never
>>>>been happy is with frame designs.  He leans toward aluminum or
>>>>stainless with the "crimp and socket" (somebody tell me if there's a
>>>>techincal term) type fitting and shock cords used in tents.  The
>>>>individual pieces need to be short enough to fit under cockpit seats
>>>>or in lazarette.
>>>>
>>>>Stan is more than happy to have some help in project managing this,
>>>>which Bill and I are doing for now.  Stan will advise as we go.  He
>>>>thinks we should work with small fabricators to get a prototype built
>>>>vs. working with someone "in the sailboat business."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Next Steps:
>>>>
>>>>1.  Finalize design specs and obtain firm committments.
>>>>
>>>>2.  Create prototype, beginning with frame fabricator.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Please reply with comments and suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>Dave Bradley
>>>>
>>>>P.S.  I tried attaching a jpeg file with drawings.  First is of an
>>>>idea Stan has for a yoke that would also serve as a support rafter for
>>>>roof panel.  Second is a not-to-scale sketch of the numbers and types
>>>>of interchangeable panels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>Name: Slide1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 27841 bytes Desc: not available
>>>>Url: 
>>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attch/200602/02/Slide1.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>Name: Slide2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 68477 bytes Desc: not available
>>>>Url: 
>>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attch/200602/02/Slide2.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>--
>>David Bradley
>>203.253.9973
>>dwbrad at gmail.com
>>__________________________________________________
>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>    
>>
>
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>
>  
>