[Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick

[Peter Thorn]

Bill,

Very interesting and thoughtful, and it's clear you have been obsessing
about anchoring.  What would you do in a 5 knot current?

PT

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick


> Rik,
>
> Let's call "flying anchor syndrome" "kiting".  Michael also spoke of
> kite strings and bricks.
>
> When you anchor a boat, the boat is supposed to be the kite, and the
> anchor the brick.
>
> In one of my posts I mentioned the importance of letting out the line
> faster than you are traveling so that there is slack anchor rode
> floating on top of the water while the metal anchor heads straight for
> the bottom.  This is critical when anchoring.  Failure to execute this
> properly results in "kiting" where the anchor becomes the kite, and the
> boat becomes the brick.
>
> There is a popular misconception that "kiting" happens more with a
> Danforth anchor than any other type.  I suppose this is because the
> flukes resemble the wings of a jet fighter.  But in actual point of
> fact, a cinder block will kite if you don't put out the rode fast enough.
>
> To the extent that there is a trick to proper anchoring, the trick is to
> stop the boat before dropping the anchor.  If you do this, all the
> physics works in your favor.  You set the anchor, set the rode, and the
> anchor will remain where you put it until you release it.
>
> The notion of stopping a boat traveling at 5 kts. by throwing an anchor
> overboard is another popular misconception.  At that speed, the boat is
> traveling somewhere around 10 feet a second.  You must let out the rode
> faster than 10 feet a second to prevent the anchor from kiting.  It
> doesn't matter how heavy the anchor is--if you fail to let out the road
> faster than you are traveling, the anchor becomes the kite, and the boat
> is the brick.
>
> But let's say that instead of dealing with your problem, you have
> decided to throw an anchor overboard, and you are able to release the
> rode at a rate of more than 10 feet per second.  10 to 15 seconds after
> you hear the splash of your anchor you will face a new problem--"What
Now?"
>
> Nobody drops a bow anchor from a boat traveling at 5 knots--it's just
> too dumb--the anchor is going to hit hull of the boat, foul the rudder,
> wrap around the prop--even in a panic you don't do that.  Not to mention
> the fact that you're in the stern, and you can't get to the bow and
> release the anchor anyhow.
>
> So you must be thinking of dropping the anchor from the stern.  If your
> stern anchor is like mine, the bitter end of the rode isn't attached to
> anything substantial.  Line is paying out like crazy.  You believe your
> anchor is on the bottom--and you've got just a split second to decide if
> you're going to grab the end of the line and try to stop your 3000 pound
> + boat, which is hurtling forward out of control at greater than 5
> knots, using only your body...
>
> I hope you remember the crushing force of your boat against a dock at
> less than one knot if you ever face this situation.
>
> Let the anchor and rode go, and deal with your problem.
>
> If you are sailing, turn the boat into the wind to stop it.  Then drop
> another anchor, set it, and figure out what you're going to do next.  If
> you are motoring, steer your way out of the problem, stop the boat, drop
> an anchor.  Figure out what to do next.
>
> It is important to know before a situation arises that throwing an
> anchor overboard--no matter what type or size of anchor--when you are in
> trouble, is a bad strategy for stopping a boat.  Stop the boat first.
> Then anchor.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rik Sandberg wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > MJM's point about the anchor "not sinking" was not in relation to a
> > stationary boat, but a moving boat. Perhaps you need to tune up your
> > decoder ring and read his post again.
> >
> > I have more than once experienced this *flying anchor syndrone* when
> > using a danforth with little or no chain and trying to set an anchor
> > from a boat that has not stopped yet. MJM's point here was that if you
> > can't get the anchor to go to the bottom from a *moving* boat, it has
> > no chance to stop you in an emergency situation, ie keep you off the
> > shore, rocks, whatever.....
> >
> > Myself, I will continue to use at least a boat lenth of chain,
> > ESPECIALLY with a danforth style anchor, and not only for the reason I
> > have stated above.
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > Herb Parsons wrote:
> >
> >> =====
> >> " People do passionately believe that they must add weight to their
> >> metal anchors to make them sink, and that that is the reason for
> >> adding chain."
> >>
> >> I don't know anyone that believes that. You may, and I would agree
> >> with you that their position is wrong. Everyone I've ever talked to
> >> about this, and everything I've ever read, talks about the weight of
> >> the chain changing the angle of pull, as well as acting as a buffer
> >> for the tension of the rode.
> >>
> >> =====
> >>
> >> "PS -- The "putting your life on the line" comments are also straw
> >> man attacks.  That's just silly stuff.  Many cruisers have all line
> >> rodes. I'll get to that later."
> >>
> >> I couldn't disagree with you more. I qualified my statement by saying
> >> "someone new to sailing", as well as "may be". I stand by that. Of
> >> course it's silly if your correct, and an all rope rode is every bit
> >> as effective as chain, and there is no advantage with chain. I don't
> >> know whether that's true or not. However, if it's NOT true, and
> >> someone new to sailing follows your advice, anchors in mud, gets a
> >> poor set because they didn't use chain (again, this is predicated on
> >> the assumption that chain is needed for the set) and ends up on the
> >> rocks while they're asleep in the v-berth, then they would very much
> >> be placing their boat and their lives on the line.
> >>
> >> Besides all that, it's NOT a "straw-man" attack, because I didn't
> >> mis-state your position and attack that.
> >>
> >> =====
> >>
> >> "please comment; your actual experiences are as valuable to me as I
> >> hope mine will be to you."
> >>
> >> My actual experiences are so limited as to be almost useless. I've
> >> anchored my O'Day 25 4 or 5 times in the same lake, for no more than
> >> 3 hours at a time, with a combo chain/rope rode. Every time, the
> >> anchor set, and the boat held. I anchored one time over night on the
> >> same boat, same Danforth style anchor, in the ICW off the coast of
> >> Texas using the same set technique. The set held.
> >>
> >> I crew on a race boat, and last July 4th, all the racers held a get
> >> together. Our skipper set the anchor with his all rope rode, and it
> >> didn't hold. He said he had done it before with no problem (but being
> >> honest, he's prideful enough that he wouldn't have admitted had it
> >> not been true), and he tried three times to set the anchor. It never
> >> properly set. I watched him, and I couldn't see anything he was doing
> >> differently than me. He attributed it to luck of the draw, stated
> >> that he must have hit rocky bottom each time :).  Same style anchor
> >> (though a little smaller, but also a smaller boat), same lake,
> >> different skipper, different rode, different results. Too many
> >> variables to come to any real conclusion.
> >>
> >> The one time I took my Coronado 35 project boat out, I foolishly
> >> failed to check the anchor before I left. The diesel quit on me, and
> >> I went below and grabbed the anchor. There was no rode attached (
> >> c'mon now, I admitted I did a foolish thing). I gathered every dock
> >> line I could find, and tied them together and tied it to the anchor.
> >> Set it the way I "normally" do (in my limited experience). Lake
> >> Pontchartrain is only about 15' deep in that area, but has a VERY
> >> muddy/silty bottom. The anchor set, but the boat was drifting. The
> >> Coronado has a VERY high freeboard area, so it's more easily affected
> >> by wind than my O'Day (and it's almost always a windy day on Lake
> >> Pontchartrain). The I-10 overpass was looking frighteningly close and
> >> getting closer. In spite of that, I was so afraid of drifting even
> >> faster if I pulled anchor, that I kept what I had, let it slowly
> >> slip, while my wife watched and I worked on the motor. I got the
> >> motor started before we hit the bridge, pulled anchor, and chewed
> >> myself out in front of my wife :). Different boat, different bottom
> >> conditions, but an all rope rode as opposed to chain/rope combo.
> >> Again, too many variables to come to any real conclusion.
> >>
> >> That's my total anchoring experience. Not much to go on, but in my
> >> limited experience, and it IS VERY "limited", I've never come out of
> >> a chain/rope situation shaking and scared, half the time that I've
> >> had an all rope rode experience I was shook up, and the other half I
> >> was amused and irritated at the same time.
> >>
> >> I don't think you're going to be successful at convincing me that I
> >> should give up the chain.
> >>
> >>
> >> Herb Parsons
> >>
> >> S/V O'Jure
> >> 1976 O'Day 25
> >> Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >>
> >> S/V Reve de Papa
> >> 1971 Coronado 35
> >> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> bill at effros.com 1/12/2006 10:24:09 am >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >> Herb,
> >>
> >> I understand your point, and will respond to it in Dave's following
> >> memo.  I am not the one who raised the "straw man" argument regarding
> >> "helper metal" (although that term is mine, it does accurately
> >> reflect the thrust of the argument advanced by others.)  People do
> >> passionately believe that they must add weight to their metal anchors

> >> to make them sink, and that that is the reason for adding chain.
> >>
> >> This anchoring thing is so tied up with myths passed along by people
> >> like you and me who have never anchored a whole lot, but who are good
> >> readers.  We pass along the comments of others--who may not have
> >> anchored a whole lot either.  I really did spend a lot of time in
> >> non-critical situations testing the theories that have been passed
> >> down to us.  If I put the whole analysis into a single lengthy email
> >> everyone would hit the delete button when they got to something they
> >> didn't agree with, and that would be the end of that.
> >>
> >> Instead, I am going to break it down to individual points, and we can
> >> debate them based on what we have all read and experienced.  I will
> >> say over and over that my experience is limited to sand/clay/mud/muck
> >> bottoms which are probably what most of us (but not all) sail in.  I
> >> can anchor in rocks, but I don't know if it's the same as anchoring
> >> off the Maine coast.  I don't think anyone should anchor on coral.
> >>
> >> More to come; please comment; your actual experiences are as valuable
> >> to me as I hope mine will be to you.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> PS -- The "putting your life on the line" comments are also straw man
> >> attacks.  That's just silly stuff.  Many cruisers have all line
> >> rodes.  I'll get to that later.
> >>
> >> Herb Parsons wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Bill,
> >>>
> >>> You're doing what I see a lot of people do when they try to argue a
> >>> point that they believe passionately about - you're mis-stating your
> >>> "opposition's" position, then attacking that position. It's called a
> >>> straw-man attack.
> >>>
> >>> No one believes for a minute that an anchor needs "helper metal" to
> >>> sink. However, there can be an argument made that Danforth style and
> >>> Bruce style anchors are designed to be set by being pulled at a
> >>> certain angle. Even by your own admission and description of how you
> >>> use your anchoring system, an all rope rode would pull the anchor at
> >>> a different angle than a chain rode would. Or at least, it would if
> >>> the two systems were of equal length.
> >>>
> >>> Now, I don't anchor my boat often enough to really have much input
> >>> on this one. Because I don't anchor my boat very often, I choose to
> >>> go with the widely accepted practice of using chain for my system.
> >>> You may very well be right in your assessment, but please don't
> >>> obfuscate the debate by inserting nonsense like below. Keep in mind
> >>> that if someone new to sailing believes what you're saying, and acts
> >>> on it, they are then possibly putting their boat, and even their
> >>> lives, on the line. That alone means the discussion is worthy of
> >>> real discussion, not nonsense like "metal doesn't need help sinking,
> >>> if you don't believe me try this experiment..."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Herb Parsons
> >>>
> >>> S/V O'Jure
> >>> 1976 O'Day 25
> >>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >>>
> >>> S/V Reve de Papa
> >>> 1971 Coronado 35
> >>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> bill at effros.com 1/12/2006 8:40:27 am >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> All metal anchors sink.  No metal anchor requires "helper metal" in
> >>> the form of chain to drag it down to the bottom.  Anyone who
> >>> seriously doubts this should try this little experiment:  Remove
> >>> your anchor from your chain rode, and throw the anchor overboard.
> >>> If it floats, be sure to take a picture--there could be a Nobel
> >>> Prize in your future.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Effros
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
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> >>
> >
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