[Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick

[Bill Effros]

Peter,

I would never anchor in a 5 knot current, even though I know how to do 
so.  All boats are moving fast and out of control in 5 knots currents.  
They can't steer unless they are doing more than 5 knots, and absent an 
anchor, they can't stop to less than 5 knots which is the minimum speed 
they will be doing when they smack into you and your anchor.

In 1 to 2 knot currents (which I anchor in all the time) you just float 
on the current and drop your anchor.  You don't realize you are moving, 
but your GPS keeps telling you that your position is changing.  Your 
anchor hits the bottom, you pay out line, you snub off the line, the 
anchor sets, and suddenly you see the current passing you by, while your 
GPS informs you that you are no longer drifting.

Bill Effros

Peter Thorn wrote:

>Bill,
>
>Very interesting and thoughtful, and it's clear you have been obsessing
>about anchoring.  What would you do in a 5 knot current?
>
>PT
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:50 AM
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] A Kite and a Brick
>
>
>  
>
>>Rik,
>>
>>Let's call "flying anchor syndrome" "kiting".  Michael also spoke of
>>kite strings and bricks.
>>
>>When you anchor a boat, the boat is supposed to be the kite, and the
>>anchor the brick.
>>
>>In one of my posts I mentioned the importance of letting out the line
>>faster than you are traveling so that there is slack anchor rode
>>floating on top of the water while the metal anchor heads straight for
>>the bottom.  This is critical when anchoring.  Failure to execute this
>>properly results in "kiting" where the anchor becomes the kite, and the
>>boat becomes the brick.
>>
>>There is a popular misconception that "kiting" happens more with a
>>Danforth anchor than any other type.  I suppose this is because the
>>flukes resemble the wings of a jet fighter.  But in actual point of
>>fact, a cinder block will kite if you don't put out the rode fast enough.
>>
>>To the extent that there is a trick to proper anchoring, the trick is to
>>stop the boat before dropping the anchor.  If you do this, all the
>>physics works in your favor.  You set the anchor, set the rode, and the
>>anchor will remain where you put it until you release it.
>>
>>The notion of stopping a boat traveling at 5 kts. by throwing an anchor
>>overboard is another popular misconception.  At that speed, the boat is
>>traveling somewhere around 10 feet a second.  You must let out the rode
>>faster than 10 feet a second to prevent the anchor from kiting.  It
>>doesn't matter how heavy the anchor is--if you fail to let out the road
>>faster than you are traveling, the anchor becomes the kite, and the boat
>>is the brick.
>>
>>But let's say that instead of dealing with your problem, you have
>>decided to throw an anchor overboard, and you are able to release the
>>rode at a rate of more than 10 feet per second.  10 to 15 seconds after
>>you hear the splash of your anchor you will face a new problem--"What
>>    
>>
>Now?"
>  
>
>>Nobody drops a bow anchor from a boat traveling at 5 knots--it's just
>>too dumb--the anchor is going to hit hull of the boat, foul the rudder,
>>wrap around the prop--even in a panic you don't do that.  Not to mention
>>the fact that you're in the stern, and you can't get to the bow and
>>release the anchor anyhow.
>>
>>So you must be thinking of dropping the anchor from the stern.  If your
>>stern anchor is like mine, the bitter end of the rode isn't attached to
>>anything substantial.  Line is paying out like crazy.  You believe your
>>anchor is on the bottom--and you've got just a split second to decide if
>>you're going to grab the end of the line and try to stop your 3000 pound
>>+ boat, which is hurtling forward out of control at greater than 5
>>knots, using only your body...
>>
>>I hope you remember the crushing force of your boat against a dock at
>>less than one knot if you ever face this situation.
>>
>>Let the anchor and rode go, and deal with your problem.
>>
>>If you are sailing, turn the boat into the wind to stop it.  Then drop
>>another anchor, set it, and figure out what you're going to do next.  If
>>you are motoring, steer your way out of the problem, stop the boat, drop
>>an anchor.  Figure out what to do next.
>>
>>It is important to know before a situation arises that throwing an
>>anchor overboard--no matter what type or size of anchor--when you are in
>>trouble, is a bad strategy for stopping a boat.  Stop the boat first.
>>Then anchor.
>>
>>Bill Effros
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Rik Sandberg wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Bill,
>>>
>>>MJM's point about the anchor "not sinking" was not in relation to a
>>>stationary boat, but a moving boat. Perhaps you need to tune up your
>>>decoder ring and read his post again.
>>>
>>>I have more than once experienced this *flying anchor syndrone* when
>>>using a danforth with little or no chain and trying to set an anchor
>>>from a boat that has not stopped yet. MJM's point here was that if you
>>>can't get the anchor to go to the bottom from a *moving* boat, it has
>>>no chance to stop you in an emergency situation, ie keep you off the
>>>shore, rocks, whatever.....
>>>
>>>Myself, I will continue to use at least a boat lenth of chain,
>>>ESPECIALLY with a danforth style anchor, and not only for the reason I
>>>have stated above.
>>>
>>>Rik
>>>
>>>Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>=====
>>>>" People do passionately believe that they must add weight to their
>>>>metal anchors to make them sink, and that that is the reason for
>>>>adding chain."
>>>>
>>>>I don't know anyone that believes that. You may, and I would agree
>>>>with you that their position is wrong. Everyone I've ever talked to
>>>>about this, and everything I've ever read, talks about the weight of
>>>>the chain changing the angle of pull, as well as acting as a buffer
>>>>for the tension of the rode.
>>>>
>>>>=====
>>>>
>>>>"PS -- The "putting your life on the line" comments are also straw
>>>>man attacks.  That's just silly stuff.  Many cruisers have all line
>>>>rodes. I'll get to that later."
>>>>
>>>>I couldn't disagree with you more. I qualified my statement by saying
>>>>"someone new to sailing", as well as "may be". I stand by that. Of
>>>>course it's silly if your correct, and an all rope rode is every bit
>>>>as effective as chain, and there is no advantage with chain. I don't
>>>>know whether that's true or not. However, if it's NOT true, and
>>>>someone new to sailing follows your advice, anchors in mud, gets a
>>>>poor set because they didn't use chain (again, this is predicated on
>>>>the assumption that chain is needed for the set) and ends up on the
>>>>rocks while they're asleep in the v-berth, then they would very much
>>>>be placing their boat and their lives on the line.
>>>>
>>>>Besides all that, it's NOT a "straw-man" attack, because I didn't
>>>>mis-state your position and attack that.
>>>>
>>>>=====
>>>>
>>>>"please comment; your actual experiences are as valuable to me as I
>>>>hope mine will be to you."
>>>>
>>>>My actual experiences are so limited as to be almost useless. I've
>>>>anchored my O'Day 25 4 or 5 times in the same lake, for no more than
>>>>3 hours at a time, with a combo chain/rope rode. Every time, the
>>>>anchor set, and the boat held. I anchored one time over night on the
>>>>same boat, same Danforth style anchor, in the ICW off the coast of
>>>>Texas using the same set technique. The set held.
>>>>
>>>>I crew on a race boat, and last July 4th, all the racers held a get
>>>>together. Our skipper set the anchor with his all rope rode, and it
>>>>didn't hold. He said he had done it before with no problem (but being
>>>>honest, he's prideful enough that he wouldn't have admitted had it
>>>>not been true), and he tried three times to set the anchor. It never
>>>>properly set. I watched him, and I couldn't see anything he was doing
>>>>differently than me. He attributed it to luck of the draw, stated
>>>>that he must have hit rocky bottom each time :).  Same style anchor
>>>>(though a little smaller, but also a smaller boat), same lake,
>>>>different skipper, different rode, different results. Too many
>>>>variables to come to any real conclusion.
>>>>
>>>>The one time I took my Coronado 35 project boat out, I foolishly
>>>>failed to check the anchor before I left. The diesel quit on me, and
>>>>I went below and grabbed the anchor. There was no rode attached (
>>>>c'mon now, I admitted I did a foolish thing). I gathered every dock
>>>>line I could find, and tied them together and tied it to the anchor.
>>>>Set it the way I "normally" do (in my limited experience). Lake
>>>>Pontchartrain is only about 15' deep in that area, but has a VERY
>>>>muddy/silty bottom. The anchor set, but the boat was drifting. The
>>>>Coronado has a VERY high freeboard area, so it's more easily affected
>>>>by wind than my O'Day (and it's almost always a windy day on Lake
>>>>Pontchartrain). The I-10 overpass was looking frighteningly close and
>>>>getting closer. In spite of that, I was so afraid of drifting even
>>>>faster if I pulled anchor, that I kept what I had, let it slowly
>>>>slip, while my wife watched and I worked on the motor. I got the
>>>>motor started before we hit the bridge, pulled anchor, and chewed
>>>>myself out in front of my wife :). Different boat, different bottom
>>>>conditions, but an all rope rode as opposed to chain/rope combo.
>>>>Again, too many variables to come to any real conclusion.
>>>>
>>>>That's my total anchoring experience. Not much to go on, but in my
>>>>limited experience, and it IS VERY "limited", I've never come out of
>>>>a chain/rope situation shaking and scared, half the time that I've
>>>>had an all rope rode experience I was shook up, and the other half I
>>>>was amused and irritated at the same time.
>>>>
>>>>I don't think you're going to be successful at convincing me that I
>>>>should give up the chain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Herb Parsons
>>>>
>>>>S/V O'Jure
>>>>1976 O'Day 25
>>>>Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>
>>>>S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>1971 Coronado 35
>>>>Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>>bill at effros.com 1/12/2006 10:24:09 am >>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>Herb,
>>>>
>>>>I understand your point, and will respond to it in Dave's following
>>>>memo.  I am not the one who raised the "straw man" argument regarding
>>>>"helper metal" (although that term is mine, it does accurately
>>>>reflect the thrust of the argument advanced by others.)  People do
>>>>passionately believe that they must add weight to their metal anchors
>>>>        
>>>>
>
>  
>
>>>>to make them sink, and that that is the reason for adding chain.
>>>>
>>>>This anchoring thing is so tied up with myths passed along by people
>>>>like you and me who have never anchored a whole lot, but who are good
>>>>readers.  We pass along the comments of others--who may not have
>>>>anchored a whole lot either.  I really did spend a lot of time in
>>>>non-critical situations testing the theories that have been passed
>>>>down to us.  If I put the whole analysis into a single lengthy email
>>>>everyone would hit the delete button when they got to something they
>>>>didn't agree with, and that would be the end of that.
>>>>
>>>>Instead, I am going to break it down to individual points, and we can
>>>>debate them based on what we have all read and experienced.  I will
>>>>say over and over that my experience is limited to sand/clay/mud/muck
>>>>bottoms which are probably what most of us (but not all) sail in.  I
>>>>can anchor in rocks, but I don't know if it's the same as anchoring
>>>>off the Maine coast.  I don't think anyone should anchor on coral.
>>>>
>>>>More to come; please comment; your actual experiences are as valuable
>>>>to me as I hope mine will be to you.
>>>>
>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>>PS -- The "putting your life on the line" comments are also straw man
>>>>attacks.  That's just silly stuff.  Many cruisers have all line
>>>>rodes.  I'll get to that later.
>>>>
>>>>Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>>You're doing what I see a lot of people do when they try to argue a
>>>>>point that they believe passionately about - you're mis-stating your
>>>>>"opposition's" position, then attacking that position. It's called a
>>>>>straw-man attack.
>>>>>
>>>>>No one believes for a minute that an anchor needs "helper metal" to
>>>>>sink. However, there can be an argument made that Danforth style and
>>>>>Bruce style anchors are designed to be set by being pulled at a
>>>>>certain angle. Even by your own admission and description of how you
>>>>>use your anchoring system, an all rope rode would pull the anchor at
>>>>>a different angle than a chain rode would. Or at least, it would if
>>>>>the two systems were of equal length.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now, I don't anchor my boat often enough to really have much input
>>>>>on this one. Because I don't anchor my boat very often, I choose to
>>>>>go with the widely accepted practice of using chain for my system.
>>>>>You may very well be right in your assessment, but please don't
>>>>>obfuscate the debate by inserting nonsense like below. Keep in mind
>>>>>that if someone new to sailing believes what you're saying, and acts
>>>>>on it, they are then possibly putting their boat, and even their
>>>>>lives, on the line. That alone means the discussion is worthy of
>>>>>real discussion, not nonsense like "metal doesn't need help sinking,
>>>>>if you don't believe me try this experiment..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Herb Parsons
>>>>>
>>>>>S/V O'Jure
>>>>>1976 O'Day 25
>>>>>Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>>>>
>>>>>S/V Reve de Papa
>>>>>1971 Coronado 35
>>>>>Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>bill at effros.com 1/12/2006 8:40:27 am >>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>All metal anchors sink.  No metal anchor requires "helper metal" in
>>>>>the form of chain to drag it down to the bottom.  Anyone who
>>>>>seriously doubts this should try this little experiment:  Remove
>>>>>your anchor from your chain rode, and throw the anchor overboard.
>>>>>If it floats, be sure to take a picture--there could be a Nobel
>>>>>Prize in your future.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>      
>>>
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>>
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