[Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for David

Mon Jun 26 08:43:00 EDT 2006

Bill,

Well we both agree that we tune by ear and we don't know how to use a loos 
gauge. We also agree that you should not tighten something so much it 
breaks.  We both agree that neither Stan, you, or I have trouble pointing. 
All of the above is fairly obvious to me so I am not sure why you even bring 
up.

I am sure you have noted the two posts stating that hand tight is around 
150#.

Regarding Roger; generally on sailing issues I took his side. Non sailing 
subjects we often disagreed. I will count out board motors as non sailing. 
:-) As for fellow list member Bill E......we generally agree on non sailing 
and I must admit we often disagree on sailing issues. I do think you are 
wearing clothes though. :-)
Wally

>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for David
>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:17:24 -0400
>
>Wally,
>
>I also tune rigging by eye and ear.
>
>As noted by Rummy, much of what Roger said made absolutely no sense.  It 
>was an "emperor has no clothes on" thing.  I think he left the list because 
>people were starting to call him on it.
>
>I've never seen Loos instructions, and would love to have someone post them 
>to list. (If it's OK with Rose.)
>
>Roger recommends 200 pounds.  But Herb is looking at the instructions and 
>he says 15%.  Does the thing measure in pounds or in percentages?
>
>The man who makes the boat tells you he tunes the boat by eye and ear.  He 
>has no trouble sailing into the wind, and I don't either.
>
>The point of wire stay rigging is that it doesn't move much once set.  If 
>you have 200 pounds of force in each of 9 different directions, how do your 
>stays get slack to leeward?
>
>I never put tools on my stays.  It looks to me like a Loos gauge has the 
>potential to damage the stay.
>
>There is no reason to put so much pressure on mounting hardware that you 
>damage the structure of your boat.
>
>If your stays are not exactly the same length, you will have to put 
>different pressure on different stays to keep the sail where you want it 
>relative to your boat and the wind.  Making the pressure on all stays equal 
>is silly and counterproductive.
>
>Sometimes I really miss Roger.  I'd love to see what he has to say about 
>all this.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>TN Rhodey wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>>Tunig your rig is in no way like slamming a single car door. Your car 
>>doors are independent. It would be like slamming all 4 car doors using 
>>equal force.
>>
>>Did you read Roger's post in the FAQ. He goes through his process and 
>>answers most of your questions. I have no idea if he is right.
>>
>>Many on this list complain they can't point high into the wind. I am of 
>>the opinion that most of these people have boats way out of tune. I also 
>>think the GB furler doesn't allow you to tighten jib luff properly 
>>compounding the situation.
>>
>>You know I like to keep it simple but if you don't have experience having 
>>a way to measure is helpful. Brad uses an example of experienced mechanic 
>>not using torque wrench. I wonder if he would wants all the guys to go 
>>through training never using a torque wrench. If you don't have a point of 
>>reference (experience helps!) you are just maKing a wild guess.
>>
>>Wally
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for 
>>>David
>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:10:34 -0400
>>>
>>>Oh, please...
>>>
>>>This is like a discussion of how hard to slam a car door.  You only have 
>>>to slam it hard enough to close.  The car can take a harder slam, but you 
>>>are not accomplishing anything good for the car by slamming the door 
>>>harder.
>>>
>>>We should banish Loos gauges from this list.  They are supposed to be 
>>>calibrated for the type and size of stay they are measuring.  They don't 
>>>measure in pounds--you interpolate index numbers.
>>>
>>>Where the hell did 200 pounds come from, anyhow?
>>>
>>>Is that 200 pounds when the other 8 shrouds are slack, or 200 pounds when 
>>>the other 8 shrouds also each show 200 pounds?  Or is it 200 pounds 
>>>total, divided by 9 shrouds?
>>>
>>>The tension on the back stay which holds up the traveler is supposed to 
>>>be the same as the tension on the lower side stays?
>>>
>>>If the mast is not perpendicular to the boat, but all the stays register 
>>>200 pounds--is the rigging ok?
>>>
>>>A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>>>
>>>Bill Effros
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>Ed,
>>>>
>>>>Without a gauge it is hard to quantify hand tight. Perhaps someone 
>>>>should tighten hand tight and then measure? What if three people 
>>>>tightned hand tight and measured? I bet you would have 3 different 
>>>>measurements. I must admit that mine are tighter than hand tight....not 
>>>>much. Lee side shrouds still go slack. Sloppy or over tight, either way 
>>>>creates proplems.
>>>>
>>>>Roger knew how tune an R22 and he used a gauge. Did you see his specs? 
>>>>Anyone with IMF actually use a gauge? Someone should know this? I may 
>>>>have to borrow a friend's gauge and measure .....
>>>>
>>>>Wally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for David
>>>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>David:
>>>>>      I would like to suppliment Captain Rummy's response to you with 
>>>>>where
>>>>>you find documentation supporting what he is telling you.  Stan, aka,
>>>>>General Boats, makes an instruction manual for the Rhodes 22.  With 
>>>>>Rose's
>>>>>permission, a copy of which is located in the Document Library of this 
>>>>>web
>>>>>site. See:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/doclib/Rhodes22-1988-Owners-Raven.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>       Now specifically go to pages 4 and 5, especially about the guy 
>>>>>who
>>>>>used pliers to tighten the shrouds.  So after reading the instructions
>>>>>promulgated by Stan you may begin to understand why most of use just 
>>>>>follow
>>>>>his instuctions.  Please understand that while Stan's education is
>>>>>electrical engineering he is a nautical engineer by advocation.  The 
>>>>>point
>>>>>Rummy made is that the mast is not made to be over tighened.  What 
>>>>>Rummy
>>>>>said is supported by the instructional manual for this boat.
>>>>>       Who ever told you to use 200 pounds of tension told you very 
>>>>>wrong.
>>>>>That kind of number may be correct for a fifty foot keel stepped racing
>>>>>sailboat, but not appropriate for a cabin (deck) stepped mast without a
>>>>>compression post from base to keel.   It sounds like somebody has 
>>>>>created a
>>>>>problem in over tensioning the stays.  Hopefully the cabin is not 
>>>>>reshaped
>>>>>permenantly.
>>>>>        Many Cat boats and other modern designs do not even use stays 
>>>>>to keep
>>>>>the mast upright.  Read about the latest model Hunter sail boats.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ed K
>>>>>Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>--
>>>>>View this message in context: 
>>>>>http://www.nabble.com/Problem-shrouds.-t1840793.html#a5025664
>>>>>Sent from the Rhodes22 forum at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
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>>
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