[Rhodes22-list] Hybrid Cars

[Bill Effros]

Brad,

I rented the Jetta turbo-diesel in Italy.  Since what I was buying was 
liters in Euros, and what I was driving was kilometers, I have no idea 
of exactly how good my mileage was--but I've driven in Italy before, and 
I know what it cost me, and I know how seldom I had to fill up the 
Jetta, and I know how many trips I took...That thing was great!  And it 
didn't drive like a diesel, or sound like a diesel.  What is the mileage 
in those things--in terms I can understand?

I've also rented a Sonata in the US (when you get older they start 
bumping you up to nicer cars for no extra money at the bottom of the 
line rental prices)--I was very impressed. 

I was originally planning to get a Lexus this time around (I wanted a 
car that could remember my ass) but Toyota is using the hybrid in the 
Lexus for speed, and that's not what I need right now.  (The Camry 
hybrid is actually faster off the line than many of the old hot rods we 
used to build when I was a kid.)

I'm starting to see negative reviews on the Camry Hybrid, so the jury is 
still out on this one.  The only item of concern is an old style lunging 
cruise control--I don't know why this would be--my old Camry had this 
problem licked, and the car is in gas-engine mode when the cruise 
control is on, but I'll keep checking.  The book isn't due for 
publication until February.

Bill Effros

Brad Haslett wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I can't argue with your choice of car, my Lexus ES-300 is basically a 
> Camry
> drivetrain with some slightly different sheet metal.  They're great cars.
> Have you driven the Volkswagon Jetta turbo-diesel?  It is not as nice 
> a car
> as the Camry but the mileage is incredible.  If you aren't looking at 
> a  when
> hybrid, also take a look at the Hyundai Azera or Sonata - they both 
> get good
> reviews compared to Camry and Accord for a lot less money.
>
> Brad
>
>
> On 10/9/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Hank,
>>
>> I did the same math, and came to the same conclusion.  But I have a
>> special need, and that is why I'm buying the car.  I will be doing a
>> book tour next Spring, the first of many.  I drive from city to city
>> because it's so much less a hassle than flying.  My interest in the
>> Toyota Camry is its range, which is better than 600 miles on a tankful.
>>
>> When you do the morning news you often have to be at the TV station
>> before 6:00 am.  If you have driven a couple of hundred miles to get to
>> the next city late at night, you don't want to have to drive around to
>> find an open gas station, either late at night or early the next
>> morning.  I like to sleep as close to the first TV station as possible,
>> and often they are located in remote places with no nearby gas
>> stations.  The huge range allows me to drive from one city to the next,
>> hitting all the local TV stations the next morning before I have to fill
>> the tank and get to the next town.
>>
>> This is also the reason for not buying a diesel.  In many places diesel
>> is just too hard to come by.
>>
>> The last time I did this I bought a Camry that had a 500 plus mile
>> range.  I didn't often get to the bottom of the tank, but a few times I
>> did.  I liked the car--it was comfortable and quiet for repeated long
>> trips.  The new one is supposed to have the same attributes, and the 600
>> mile range is the big draw for me.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> Hank wrote:
>> > Bill,
>> >
>> > On the subject of hybrid cars, we recently bought a new car and we 
>> were
>> > looking at the Honda Civic, both standard and hybrid.  For us, the
>> > math just
>> > didn't work out and we ended up buying the standard version. I'll show
>> > you
>> > what I mean.  FYI, both of the cause were comparable equipped with the
>> > only
>> > real difference being the drivetrain.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Honda Civic
>> >
>> > MPG
>> >
>> > Gas Cost/Gal
>> >
>> > Annual Miles
>> >
>> > Gas/year (Mileage/MPG)
>> >
>> > Gas Cost/year
>> >
>> > Veh Cost
>> >
>> > # of years to break even
>> >
>> > Regular
>> >
>> > 30
>> >
>> > 2.5
>> >
>> > 15000
>> >
>> > 500
>> >
>> > 1250
>> >
>> > 18000
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hybrid
>> >
>> > 50
>> >
>> > 2.5
>> >
>> > 15000
>> >
>> > 300
>> >
>> > 750
>> >
>> > 22000
>> >
>> > 8
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At a savings of $500 a year in gas, it would take 8 years for the
>> > hybrid to
>> > break even with the normal engine version because of the increased
>> > purchase
>> > price. To me, that is just not economically feasible.
>> > Hank
>> >
>> > On 10/9/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Saroj,
>> >>
>> >> Just found this.  Be careful on geothermal.  My brother tried it and
>> got
>> >> burned--no, that's a bad word word in this instance--he got 
>> frozen--it
>> >> sucked so much water out of the ground that there was none left for
>> >> cooking or bathing--not to mention that it got lukewarm very quickly.
>> >>
>> >> Bill Effros
>> >>
>> >> PS -- I've rented the straight diesel cars in Europe and they are
>> >> sensational.  You can't tell they are diesels any more except when 
>> you
>> >> keep passing gas pumps without needing any more fuel.  I am seriously
>> >> considering a hybrid Camry for myself.
>> >>
>> >> Saroj Gilbert wrote:
>> >> > I've heard the deisel - electric cars are available in Europe now..
>> so
>> >> > maybe not so far away.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am planning on geothermal which should certainly help with the
>> >> > cooling... as it turns out I have to dig a well on this property 
>> even
>> >> > though it is fairly Urban... a very old and small neighborhood 
>> where
>> >> > most have wells already so no impetus to provide city water.  which
>> is
>> >> > just fine with me. The well drilling company I plan to use already
>> has
>> >> > experience drilling the geothermal holes as well... so one-stop
>> >> shopping.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also already planning on the SIP approach... trying to blend the
>> >> > energy-efficiency with some interesting architecture aside from the
>> >> > typical Colonial or brick ranch that is common in this area.  
>> Thought
>> >> > seriously about doing a dome, but decided against it for this area
>> for
>> >> > asset-protection reasons.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks for the good info!
>> >> >
>> >> > Saroj
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Haslett" 
>> <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:01 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Bill & Saroj,
>> >> >
>> >> > Bill, the Jetta will work for me.  I've owned a couple of early 
>> 80's
>> >> > diesel
>> >> > Rabbits and a diesel Audi 4000 (same drive train) The Rabbit
>> hatchback
>> >> is
>> >> > coming back but I prefer a sedan.  I flew GDL, Mexico all last 
>> month
>> >> > where
>> >> > the Jetta is built.  They just settled their strike and 
>> hopefully the
>> >> > quality will be good.
>> >> >
>> >> > Saroj, diesel-hybrids are off the shelf technology and my company
>> >> did a
>> >> > joint-venture with Eaton to produce diesel-hybrid delivery trucks.
>> >> Duh!
>> >> > Think trains and WW2 submarines.  You should expect 80mpg+ when 
>> they
>> >> come
>> >> > but when will that be?  I'll move earlier and go with a straight
>> >> > diesel and
>> >> > hope for rapeseed biodiesel.  The only way to go with the home is
>> >> > insulated
>> >> > concrete forms and geo-thermal radiant heating.  Cooling is another
>> >> > issue.
>> >> > A nuke powerplant running A/C is the ticket.  You have no control
>> >> > where your
>> >> > electrons come from but they probably come from coal.
>> >> >
>> >> > Didn't we have this same discussion in the 70's?
>> >> >
>> >> > Brad
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I hear you on that... as for me... I'm looking to diesel hybrid
>> >> for my
>> >> >> next
>> >> >> car... and currently doing intensive research on how to make my 
>> new
>> >> >> house
>> >> >> (yet to be built) use as little non-renewable energy as 
>> possible...
>> >> >> quite
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> interesting exploration for me... refreshing information that I
>> >> hadn't
>> >> >> read
>> >> >> too much about since I subscribed to Mother Earth News in the
>> >> >> 70's.  Heating
>> >> >> shouldn't be a problem but dealing with the hot, humid summers
>> >> will be
>> >> >> challenging.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Its hard to balance the economics on electricity usage in this 
>> area
>> >> >> (S.E.
>> >> >> VA) since it is so very low... 6 cents a KW if I remember 
>> correctly;
>> >> >> however
>> >> >> I feel strongly about it and will do whatever I can... luckily I
>> work
>> >> >> out
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> my home and the new house will be so close to a lot of services
>> >> that I
>> >> >> should be able to ride the bike a lot of places.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Saroj
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> >> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:54 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Saroj,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Maybe, I don't agree with all the premises of the article but
>> >> everything
>> >> >> does line up for a fall, just not as far as the author suggested.
>> >> The
>> >> >> unfortunate repercussion is that it will encourage us to go back
>> >> to our
>> >> >> foolish ways.  Peak Oil is coming!  The folks who have the most
>> >> oil are
>> >> >> still the same folks who hate us the most.  The two fastest
>> >> growing oil
>> >> >> consuming nations, China and India, aren't slowing down. China
>> >> doesn't
>> >> >> give
>> >> >> a shit about anything but China, and they're cutting deals
>> everywhere
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> every commodity.  I can't make my jet or our equipment burn less
>> >> >> fuel, but
>> >> >> my next car *will *get 50mpg+.  Hopefully it won't smell like
>> shrimp.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Brad
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 9/15/06, Saroj Gilbert <saroj at pathfind.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That would be good news...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>> >> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> >> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:23 AM
>> >> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Good News - Gas Prices Falling
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 12:00 AM
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > *.*
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > **
>> >> >> > *
>> >> >> > **Analyst predicts plunge in gas prices*
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > *By Kevin G. Hall*
>> >> >> > *McClatchy Newspapers*
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > WASHINGTON — The recent sharp drop in the global price of crude
>> oil
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> > mark the start of a massive sell-off that returns gasoline
>> >> prices to
>> >> >> lows
>> >> >> > not seen since the late 1990s — perhaps as low as $1.15 a 
>> gallon.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "All the hurricane flags are flying" in oil markets, said Philip
>> >> >> Verleger,
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > noted energy consultant who was a lone voice several years 
>> ago in
>> >> >> warning
>> >> >> > that oil prices would soar. Now, he says, they appear to be 
>> poised
>> >> >> for a
>> >> >> > dramatic plunge.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Crude-oil prices have fallen about $14, or roughly 17 percent,
>> from
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> > July 14 peak of $78.40. After falling seven straight days, they
>> >> rose
>> >> >> > slightly Wednesday in trading on the New York Mercantile
>> >> Exchange, to
>> >> >> > $63.97, partly in reaction to a government report showing fuel
>> >> >> inventories
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > bit lower than expected. But the overall price drop is 
>> expected to
>> >> >> > continue,
>> >> >> > and prices could fall much more in the weeks and months ahead.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Here's why:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > For most of the past two years, oil prices have risen because 
>> the
>> >> >> world's
>> >> >> > oil producers have struggled to keep pace with growing demand,
>> >> >> > particularly
>> >> >> > from China and India. Spare oil-production capacity grew so 
>> tight
>> >> that
>> >> >> > market players feared that any disruption to oil production 
>> could
>> >> >> create
>> >> >> > shortages.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Fear of disruption focused on fighting in Nigeria, escalating
>> >> tensions
>> >> >> > over
>> >> >> > Iran's nuclear program, violence between Israel and Lebanon that
>> >> might
>> >> >> > spread to oil-producing neighbors, and the prospect that
>> hurricanes
>> >> >> might
>> >> >> > topple oil facilities in the Gulf of Mexico.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Oil traders bet that such worrisome developments would drive up
>> the
>> >> >> future
>> >> >> > price of oil. Oil is traded in contracts for future delivery, 
>> and
>> >> >> > companies
>> >> >> > that take physical delivery of oil are just a small part of 
>> total
>> >> >> trading.
>> >> >> > Large pension and commodities funds are the big traders and
>> they're
>> >> >> > seeking
>> >> >> > profits. They've sunk $105 billion or more into oil futures in
>> >> recent
>> >> >> > years,
>> >> >> > according to Verleger. Their bets that oil prices would rise in
>> the
>> >> >> future
>> >> >> > bid up the price of oil.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That, in turn, led users of oil to create stockpiles as cushions
>> >> >> against
>> >> >> > supply disruptions and even higher future prices. Now 
>> inventories
>> >> >> of oil
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > approaching 1990 levels.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > But many of the conditions that drove investors to bid up oil
>> >> >> prices are
>> >> >> > ebbing. Tensions over Israel, Lebanon and Nigeria are easing. 
>> The
>> >> >> > hurricane
>> >> >> > season has presented no threat so far to the Gulf of Mexico. The
>> >> U.S.
>> >> >> peak
>> >> >> > summer driving season is over, so gasoline demand is falling.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > With fear of supply disruptions ebbing, oil prices began 
>> sliding.
>> >> With
>> >> >> oil
>> >> >> > inventories high, refiners that turn oil into gasoline are
>> expected
>> >> to
>> >> >> cut
>> >> >> > production. As refiners cut production, oil companies 
>> increasingly
>> >> >> risk
>> >> >> > getting stuck with excess oil supplies. There's already 
>> anecdotal
>> >> >> evidence
>> >> >> > of oil companies chartering tankers to store excess oil.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > All this is turning financial markets increasingly bearish on 
>> oil.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "If we continue to build inventories, and if we have a warm 
>> winter
>> >> >> like
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> > had last winter, you could see a large fall in the price of 
>> oil,"
>> >> said
>> >> >> > Gary
>> >> >> > Pokoik, who manages Hedge Ventures Energy in Los Angeles, an
>> energy
>> >> >> hedge
>> >> >> > fund. "I think there is still a lot of risk in the market."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > As it stands now, the recent oil-price slump has brought the
>> >> national
>> >> >> > average for a gallon of unleaded gasoline down to $2.59,
>> >> according to
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> > AAA motor club. In the Seattle area, prices per gallon have
>> >> fallen to
>> >> >> > $2.856
>> >> >> > currently from $3.071 a month ago, a decline of 7 percent,
>> >> >> according to
>> >> >> > AAA.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Should oil traders fear that this downward price spiral will get
>> >> worse
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> > run for the exits by selling off their futures contracts, 
>> Verleger
>> >> >> said,
>> >> >> > it's not unthinkable that oil prices could return to $15 or 
>> less a
>> >> >> barrel,
>> >> >> > at least temporarily. That could mean gasoline prices as low as
>> >> $1.15
>> >> >> per
>> >> >> > gallon.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Other experts won't guess at a floor price, but they agree 
>> that a
>> >> race
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> > the bottom could break out.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "The market may test levels here that are too low to be
>> sustained,"
>> >> >> said
>> >> >> > Clay Seigle, an analyst at Cambridge Energy Research 
>> Associates, a
>> >> >> > consultancy in Boston.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Monday, the oil-producing cartel OPEC hinted that if prices
>> fall
>> >> >> > precipitously, OPEC members would cut production to lift 
>> them. But
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> > would take time.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "That takes six to nine months. If we don't have a really cold
>> >> winter
>> >> >> here
>> >> >> > [creating a demand for oil], prices will fall. Literally, you
>> don't
>> >> >> know
>> >> >> > where the floor is," Verleger said. "In a market like this, if
>> >> things
>> >> >> > start
>> >> >> > falling ... prices could take you back to the 1999 levels. It 
>> has
>> >> >> nothing
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > do with production."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/general/copyright.html>
>> >> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>
>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>
>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> > __________________________________________________
>> >> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>