[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Pat Tillman's Brother Speaks

[Hank]

Bill,

We did not go to Iraq to fight extremist Islam.  Extremist Islam, most of
them non-iraqis, came to Iraq to fight us.  They picked the fight, now what
do we do?  Run, because we got our nose bloodied?  I sure hope not.

Hank

On 10/25/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>
> Hank,
>
> Neither of us has taken a poll of personnel who are currently on active
> duty.  For every returning soldier who supports your views, I can find
> another who does not.  Their opinions are entirely beside the point.
>
> Now we are in Iraq to fight extremist Islam?  We have placed our
> soldiers in the middle of a religious civil war.  There are extreme
> Islamists on both sides, and both sides are shooting at our kids when we
> get in the way.   What constitutes a "win"?  Is it a "win" because
> everyone we kill (including civilians) is an Islamist?
>
> Be very careful how you answer.  There are more practicing Islamists in
> the world today than there are practicing Christians.  Do you really
> think we have enough technology to be able to kill them all?  If Iraq is
> the beta test, this is a project that should be dropped, and the sooner
> the better.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> Hank wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > Kevin Tillman is entitled to his opinion and I suspect a large part of
> > it is
> > due to his bitterness at his brother being killed by a friendly fire
> > incident.  However, if you took a poll of personnel who are currently on
> > active duty, the vast majority of them would say that they have good
> > morale
> > and that they feel we should be there.  I know as I have many friends
> > currently on active duty and I served 20+ years on active duty.
> >
> > Brad has hit the nail right on the head about this being the chosen
> > battle
> > ground against extremist Islam and if it wasn't there, then it would be
> > somewhere else.  They're not going to stop until either they or us are
> > dead.
> > Which side of that equation do you want to be on?
> >
> > Hank
> >
> > On 10/25/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> After Pat's Birthday
> >> http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
> >> Posted on Oct 19, 2006
> >>
> >> By Kevin Tillman
> >>
> >> Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
> >> 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Pat was killed
> >> in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
> has
> >> written a powerful, must-read document.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day
> after.  It
> >> gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined
> >> the military.  He spoke about the risks with signing the papers.  How
> >> once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and
> >> the American people.  How we could be thrown in a direction not of our
> >> volition.  How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice…
> >> until we got out.
> >>
> >> Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
> >>
> >> Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat
> >> to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was
> >> involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium
> >> from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be
> >> liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an
> insurgency,
> >> or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a civil war even
> >> though it is.  Something like that.
> >>
> >> Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it
> is
> >> not and condemns everything that it is.
> >>
> >> Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and
> >> humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly
> >> kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not
> >> charging them with anything, secretly torturing them.  Somehow that
> >> overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the
> >> military.
> >>
> >> Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a
> >> five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send
> it
> >> overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an
> >> extra pad in a helmet.  It's interesting that a soldier on his third or
> >> fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a
> faded
> >> sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a
> >> helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50
> feet
> >> into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
> >>
> >> Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal
> >> invasion becomes.
> >>
> >> Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people
> >> and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage,
> >> virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
> >>
> >> Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are
> >> allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
> >>
> >> Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is
> >> tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is
> >> tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country
> >> safe.
> >>
> >> Somehow torture is tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow lying is tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
> >>
> >> Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
> >>
> >> Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
> >>
> >> Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it
> is
> >> not and condemns everything that it is.
> >>
> >> Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world
> >> has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and
> >> distrusted countries in the world.
> >>
> >> Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been
> >> replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
> >>
> >> Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous,
> >> malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
> >>
> >> Somehow this is tolerated.
> >>
> >> Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
> >>
> >> In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people.
> >> So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as
> >> traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity.  Most likely,
> they
> >> will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and
> >> indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged
> >> parasites.
> >>
> >> Luckily this country is still a democracy.  People still have a voice.
> >> People still can take action.  It can start after Pat's birthday.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hank, Brad, Herb--Quit listening to FOX.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >>
> >> Hank wrote:
> >> > Ron,
> >> >
> >> > You're facts are wrong on this one.  I did hear a fairly convincing
> >> > argument
> >> > that the military will continue to increase pressure to get out, the
> >> > loss of
> >> > morale, casualties, and decrease in volunteer rate and reenlistments
> >> have
> >> > already hurt.
> >> >
> >> > My newest employee just got back from Iraq and Morale is NOT down.
> >> Our
> >> > troops are ready and rarin' to go and if you talked to them, almost
> >> > all of
> >> > them will tell you that we need to be there.  I know, I talk to
> >> them on
> >> a
> >> > daily basis.  Re-enlistments this year are up, not down.  Quit
> >> > listening to
> >> > CNN.
> >> >
> >> > Hank
> >> >
> >> > On 10/24/06, Ronald Lipton <rlipton at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I explicitly said I was not offering new ideas. What is needed is an
> >> >> intelligent policy which considers options rationally, does not
> >> depend
> >> >> on blind ideology and recognizes errors and corrects them.  There is
> >> >> indeed no magic bullet for our problems, but I have no faith in the
> >> >> course that has been set and a belief that our arrogance had made
> >> >> the world a much more dangerous place for all of us.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think that you are twisting history - a policy if regime change is
> >> >> not the same as
> >> >> invasion.  Certainly approval by congress is not a stamp of wisdom -
> >> >> they
> >> >> should have known enough to question the evidence for WMD - I won
> >> >> several bets on the question.  The question of North Korea is
> >> different
> >> >> and
> >> >> more subtle - China clearly needs to play a role.  The threat of
> >> >> massive retaliation
> >> >> does not warm the hearts of our South Korean allies.  The Bush
> policy
> >> of
> >> >> confrontation rather than engagement has not worked, but I would be
> >> >> hesitant to criticize them on that point since we are dealing with a
> >> >> country
> >> >> that does not play by the rules.
> >> >>
> >> >> What do we do in Iraq?  It's too late for me to solve this one.  I
> >> did
> >> >> hear a
> >> >> fairly convincing argument that the military will continue to
> >> increase
> >> >> pressure to get out, the loss of morale, casualties, and decrease in
> >> >> volunteer
> >> >> rate and reenlistments have already hurt.  The retired generals are
> >> >> speaking
> >> >> out now.  My guess is that we will leave as soon as a minimally
> >> stable
> >> >> state
> >> >> seems viable and hope for the best.  Iraq will not turn into a
> >> >> democratic
> >> >> island in the mid-east that's pretty clear. Our best hope now is
> that
> >> it
> >> >> does not become the major exporter of terrorists, the internal
> supply
> >> >> seems to be pretty good.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ron
> >> >> On Oct 24, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Brad Haslett wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Common leftest screed (thank-you Bill) , I've read your post twice
> >> Ron
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > still can't find any new ideas.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As to North Korea, I believe it was the "negotiations" and
> >> appeasement
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > the previous administration that got us into this mess.  How
> should
> >> we
> >> >> > respond?  We have roughly 30,000 of our own troops in harms way on
> >> the
> >> >> > border (been there since the 50's) plus several million South
> >> Koreans.
> >> >> >  The
> >> >> > North can lob 5000 conventional shells at once and we have to
> >> figure
> >> >> > out
> >> >> > which one contains the nuke.  Yes indeed, what a mess. Our best
> >> hope
> >> >> > there
> >> >> > is help from China. More troops on the ground would only mean more
> >> >> > troops
> >> >> > killed in the first day. We should think twice about allowing a
> >> >> similar
> >> >> > situation with another rouge nation developing again, hence our
> >> >> > invasion of
> >> >> > Iraq.  After all, regime change was the official policy of the
> >> Clinton
> >> >> > administration.  Let me repeat this one more time - the
> >> authorization
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > invade Iraq was approved by the Congress.  Of course some will say
> >> for
> >> >> > political reasons they were duped, but they had access to the same
> >> >> > intel - politics as usual.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > How many Iraqi citizens were killed by Saddam?  A hell of a lot
> >> more
> >> >> > than
> >> >> > by our invasion. How many more will be killed if we leave.  John
> >> Kerry
> >> >> > estimated less than 300,000 in Vietnam.  He was only off by 3
> >> million.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What do you think we should do Ron, pull out and declare victory?
> >> >> > Well, if
> >> >> > so, why quit at half-measures.  Let's disband the TSA and
> eliminate
> >> >> > the long
> >> >> > line at the airports.  After all, we have no enemies from the
> crazy
> >> >> > fringe
> >> >> > of the Islamic world, right?  Let's kiss and make up with the
> >> >> French so
> >> >> > they'll come to our side and bravely fight, just as they are in
> >> their
> >> >> > own
> >> >> > country right now. Ah yes, those wonderful allies we pissed off.
> >> >> > Please
> >> >> > remind me who we offended that weren't trading goods with Saddam.
> >> >> > Germany,
> >> >> > nope!  Russia, nope!  China, silly question!  I forget, help me
> >> here,
> >> >> > who
> >> >> > are these allies again?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This war is ugly, they all are.  We went for the right reasons.
> >> What
> >> >> > we are
> >> >> > seeing now is not unlike Tet in Vietnam.  We won that remember,
> and
> >> >> > then
> >> >> > gave the enemy time to regroup at the peace table.  Indeed,
> history
> >> >> > can be a
> >> >> > bitch.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Brad
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 10/24/06, Ronald Lipton <rlipton at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> New idea?  Better ideas?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> - Did I think invading Iraq was a good idea? NO
> >> >> >>   Were there weapons of mass distruction - NO
> >> >> >>   Were there real terrorist bases - NO
> >> >> >>   Did we give any thought to the internal politics? NO
> >> >> >>   Did we alienate our allies by our arrogance? YES.
> >> >> >>   Have we crippled our volunteer forces by throwing
> >> >> >>      away lives in a worse than useless situation?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>   How many soldiers have been killed? (~2900)
> >> >> >>   Maimed - many more
> >> >> >>   How many Iraqi civilians?
> >> >> >>   How many of their families blame the US and will take up
> >> terrorism?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> We have been weakened to the point that we can't
> >> >> >> effectively respond to real threats from N. Korea.
> >> >> >> God what a mess.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I don't see any real thought given to actions which gravely
> >> >> >> affect the US and the rest of the world.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I don't want to see this country continue to be run by a group
> >> >> >> of idiots and ideologues who seem to be completely disconnected
> >> >> >> from reality.  If soldiers are put in harms way there should be a
> >> >> >> good reason.  I see nothing but negative consequences.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Do I have better Ideas?  It's like asking someone pushed out
> >> >> >> of a window - how to get  back up there?
> >> >> >> Is there any path out of this mess - you tell me, but I believe
> >> that
> >> >> >> this is the most disastrous administration in the history of this
> >> >> >> country.  Nero probably did a worse job for Rome.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Ron
> >> >> >> On Oct 23, 2006, at 10:42 PM, Brad Haslett wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Bob,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Thanks for the post.  There are letters like this quite often
> on
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> > milblogs I frequent.  Also, I have a co-worker with a Marine
> son
> >> in
> >> >> >> > Iraq who
> >> >> >> > forwards updates from time to time.  This may be a SHOCK to the
> >> >> >> > lefties in
> >> >> >> > the world but our military is all volunteer and for the most
> >> part
> >> >> >> very
> >> >> >> > motivated.  The reaction you got on the list was predictable
> and
> >> >> >> not
> >> >> >> > unlike
> >> >> >> > the reactions from the usual suspects anytime something that
> >> >> doesn't
> >> >> >> > fit
> >> >> >> > their perceptions gets published.  They get the New York times
> >> >> >> version
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > reality everyday from someone who's never been out of the Green
> >> >> Zone
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > believe that, but gawd forbid they listen to the wisdom of a
> >> common
> >> >> >> > foot-soldier. No one likes this war, or any war for that
> matter,
> >> >> but
> >> >> >> > this
> >> >> >> > kid in the letter pretty much nailed it.  We fight them there
> >> >> now or
> >> >> >> > here
> >> >> >> > later.  Did you see on the news this evening that youths are
> >> >> burning
> >> >> >> > buses
> >> >> >> > in France?  Nope?  What kind of youths?  Of course the French
> >> can't
> >> >> >> say
> >> >> >> > it.  Radical Islamists!  Keep your head in the sand
> folks.  This
> >> >> >> ain't
> >> >> >> > goin'
> >> >> >> > away anytime soon.  We can argue about the methods or the
> chosen
> >> >> >> > battlefield
> >> >> >> > but the war declared by them a long time ago.  What was our
> >> first
> >> >> >> > reaction?  Wear sweaters!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Here's what really pisses me off.  Where are the new ideas?
> >> All I
> >> >> >> > hear this
> >> >> >> > election cycle is let's tuck tail and run, then hope for the
> >> best.
> >> >> >> Is
> >> >> >> > this
> >> >> >> > a strategy? Criticism and disagreement is one thing -
> attempting
> >> >> >> > dialogue
> >> >> >> > with, or worse, ignoring enemies who want to cut your head
> >> off is
> >> >> >> > stupid. Oh
> >> >> >> > I forget, cutting off heads is only for old time's sake, until
> >> they
> >> >> >> > can get
> >> >> >> > their WMD programs running again.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Brad
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On 10/23/06, Bob Keller <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> Got this from my brother and wanted to pass it on.
> >> >> >> >> Bob
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> This is from a co-worker at HP who's son left for Iraq today.
> >> This
> >> >> >> >> comes
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> >> me directly from his Dad. I will be getting periodic updates
> >> from
> >> >> >> him
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> will forward. I will take the last name off so as to protect
> >> his
> >> >> >> >> privacy,
> >> >> >> >> but forward on, because these brave troops need our continued
> >> >> >> support
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> prayers.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Bill
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Everyone,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Well after months and months of yakking about it the day is
> >> >> finally
> >> >> >> >> here…well almost here, just have to go to sleep tonight (we'll
> >> see
> >> >> >> >> about
> >> >> >> >> that) and it'll be here tomorrow.  I'm sure pretty much
> >> >> everyone is
> >> >> >> >> wondering what I'm thinking right now, what are my feelings,
> >> and
> >> >> >> all
> >> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> other stuff…I guess I'm going to be super-cool and spill it
> for
> >> >> >> you,
> >> >> >> >> just
> >> >> >> >> because I'm that awesome.  :c)
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I'm ready to get going, and I have been ready since my last
> >> visit
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> Colorado…sitting around here this last week or so is just
> >> awful,
> >> >> >> >> waiting
> >> >> >> > is
> >> >> >> >> never fun…gives you too much time to think, and a lot of the
> >> time
> >> >> >> >> thinking
> >> >> >> >> gets you in trouble.  I am ready to wage this war against
> >> >> >> >> militant-Islam,
> >> >> >> >> because it is something that absolutely has to be done.  Some
> >> look
> >> >> >> at
> >> >> >> >> Iraq
> >> >> >> >> and just see Saddam and WMD and that MY BOSS was wrong to go
> in
> >> >> >> there
> >> >> >> >> (btw
> >> >> >> >> we found enough WMD to kill everyone in Baghdad, but I guess
> >> you
> >> >> >> >> didn't
> >> >> >> > hear
> >> >> >> >> or read about that anywhere, ask me if you really want
> >> details…oh,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> Saddam really was a horrible asshole…pardon my language to
> both
> >> my
> >> >> >> >> grandmothers…), but it is well past that point…Iraq is the
> line
> >> in
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> > sand
> >> >> >> >> between civilized nations and Islamic fascism, because whether
> >> you
> >> >> >> >> want to
> >> >> >> >> believe it or not, there are a large group of people out there
> >> who
> >> >> >> >> want
> >> >> >> > you
> >> >> >> >> and everyone else dead unless you convert to their way of
> >> >> thinking.
> >> >> >> >> The
> >> >> >> >> great thing about Iraq is that all these idiots have decided
> it
> >> is
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> lot
> >> >> >> >> easier to fight us there than it is to come to the United
> >> States
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> fight
> >> >> >> >> you…which I am fine with, because I'm going to be so horribly
> >> well
> >> >> >> >> armed
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> >> armored that I welcome their best shot at destroying
> >> everything I
> >> >> >> have
> >> >> >> >> dedicated my life to defend.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> While I'm gone I encourage all of you to live it up for me…I
> >> can't
> >> >> >> do
> >> >> >> >> it,
> >> >> >> > so
> >> >> >> >> you all should do it double for me…take those extra few days
> >> >> off of
> >> >> >> >> work,
> >> >> >> >> take that trip, try for that double on your dirt bike, fish
> >> that
> >> >> >> run
> >> >> >> >> one
> >> >> >> >> more time, let your kid stay up that extra 15 minutes, stay in
> >> the
> >> >> >> >> duck-blind 15 more minutes after you think the birds have
> >> stopped
> >> >> >> >> flying,
> >> >> >> >> drink that extra drink…I think you get the idea…everyone has
> >> that
> >> >> >> >> area in
> >> >> >> >> their life where they can indulge, so I encourage you all to
> do
> >> it
> >> >> >> >> for me.
> >> >> >> >> The only thing that I am worried about going into Iraq is
> >> letting
> >> >> >> my
> >> >> >> >> guys
> >> >> >> >> down, letting all of you down, and letting my country down;
> >> and I
> >> >> >> can
> >> >> >> >> tell
> >> >> >> >> you with all of my heart that it is NOT in my intention to
> >> do any
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> >> those
> >> >> >> >> things.  I promise you all that I will be careful, but at the
> >> same
> >> >> >> >> time I
> >> >> >> >> promise that I will kick the ever-living CRAP out of anyone
> >> that
> >> >> >> >> presents
> >> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> >> threat to me or you...they WILL die, and they'll do it before
> I
> >> >> do.
> >> >> >> >> This
> >> >> >> >> war is the most important war that has been fought since WW2,
> >> >> >> easily,
> >> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> > not
> >> >> >> >> more so.  The things that we do tomorrow and in the next five
> >> >> years
> >> >> >> >> will
> >> >> >> >> shape the world as we know it for centuries to come…if we
> leave
> >> >> >> Iraq
> >> >> >> > before
> >> >> >> >> we win the fight then all of the western world is in danger,
> >> just
> >> >> >> >> remember
> >> >> >> >> that…and I will elaborate on that fact in the future.  So
> happy
> >> >> >> >> trails to
> >> >> >> >> all of you, and I will frequently be in touch, just say a 'lil
> >> >> >> prayer
> >> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> > me
> >> >> >> >> and I'll do alright.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> God Bless and Love,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Matt
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Matthew
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 1st Cavalry Division, Ft. Hood TX
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
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> >> today!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
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> >> >> >> > us&source=hmtagline
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________
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