[Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175

Arthur H. Czerwonky czerwonky at earthlink.net
Sun Feb 18 12:36:28 EST 2007


Wally,

My complete agreement on this, although this can be risky in Bill's case.  In my mind there is an added bonus when I want to sail with only the Genny.  This was especially important when I had a conventional mast, or if I wanted to keep my BR cover over the boom.  I now use IMF and have the BR cover up constantly, but on another horizontal pole.  This Spring I will sail with and without main and be able to compare balance and speed factors that I can attribute to the main and will report back.

Art

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>Sent: Feb 18, 2007 12:15 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>
>Wally,
>
>I once served on a PHRF rating committee, even though I have no interest 
>in sailing per se.
>
>Our job was to try to keep the races fair.  Ideally, under PHRF, every 
>sailor can win the race on any day.  The handicap is supposed to make it 
>possible for there to be an absolute tie, by handicapping both the 
>equipment on board, and the ability of the sailor.
>
>I left the committee because the sailors cheat.  They do poorly in 
>unimportant races, and then come out of nowhere to win the big ones.  
>They switch equipment on board to change their boat's characteristics in 
>ways that can't be detected.  (Blowing out water ballast during a light 
>wind race is an easy example, hard to prove, except that only one boat 
>is moving so you know what is happening.)
>
>Again, I reference our newbies.  I see many people getting 155s because 
>others on the list say they are "faster" (Roger used to say that all the 
>time).
>
>As a cruising boat the 175 is the best sail.  In some circumstances, the 
>155 is a better choice.  (Jay never has light wind--a 155 is a much 
>better sail for him.)
>
>Around here, we chuckle about people who spend all their time sailing in 
>triangles.  There is much to be learned in a short period of time from 
>racing around buoys, but it all seems to quickly degenerate into winning 
>at all costs with little more learned in the actual sailing department.  
>Many of the winners turn out to be better cheats than they are sailors.
>
>I have a hunch that a properly made 175 on an R-22 is more than 9 
>seconds faster than a 155 under certain conditions, and that if you can 
>spot those conditions you are more likely to win buoy races with a 175 
>and a 9 second penalty than you will with a 155 and no penalty.
>
>If I can find someone to test this theory for me, I think Stan can make 
>a better 175 for all of us.
>
>Until then, I want most newbies who are in the process of configuring 
>their boats to understand that except for racing (maybe) and certain 
>bodies of water, the 175 is the sail designed for the boat.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>TN Rhodey wrote:
>> Bill, I always get a chuckle when you talk about PHRF ratings and the 
>> one fastest sail. I guess it comes down to how you define absolute 
>> speed. I have never seen a post saying the 155 is fastest..... Most of 
>> us know that course and conditions determine the best/fastest sail for 
>> racing. To claim any sail is the absolute best is ignorant. Also...Are 
>> you talking top end or getting around a course?
>>
>> In the right wind conditions (light) and course (triangle) the 170(5) 
>> is faster around. In heavier winds and traditional upwind-downwind 
>> race my money is on the 155 (max), Have you ever used mylar sails? 
>> They hold a nice foil even in light air. Others on this list have 
>> commented about the heavy 170 in light air not holding shape. I sure 
>> would not want to be in a tacking battle for the windward mark flying 
>> a 170. The same wind would have mylar 155 sail in nice foil. There is 
>> a reason racers use mylar. There is a reason most buoy racers don't 
>> use IMF, or large heavy genoas, or sails without battens, or 
>> cunninghams, or downhauls.
>>
>> There is a higher PHRF hit for spinnaker compared to hit for 170...so 
>> wouldn't a spinnaker be the fastest sail?  Most serious racers know if 
>> they fly the kite well the hit is worth it. However the same crew may 
>> opt not to fly spinnaker on windy day because the PHRF hit is not 
>> worth the risk verses what can go wrong or break. So yes the 170 under 
>> the right conditions and course is the fastest sail. But different 
>> course and conditons a smaller sail would do better.
>>
>> Your posts about PHRF and racing make it obvious you don't race. It is 
>> much different than day sailing. The guys I race with love when folks 
>> like you join in for a day at the races. Before you start eating your 
>> lunch join a local race fleet....if you keep an open mind you might be 
>> surprised at how much you learn.
>>
>> Wally
>>
>>
>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0500
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> Every time newbies come on the list, the racing people tell them a 
>>> 150 sail is faster than a 175.  They never mention that the reason 
>>> for saying this is based on the intricacies of PHRF racing which 
>>> assigns a penalty to the larger sail, and that the way the newbies 
>>> are likely to use the sail they will probably go faster in absolute 
>>> terms with a 175. -- At least, that's what the PHRF fleet thinks.
>>>
>>> But we don't really know.
>>>
>>> I know you can't wait to cream your fleet with your new sail, but...
>>>
>>> With the PHRF rating you've got, I think I could cream your fleet.  
>>> If you sail a 175 and lose 9 seconds, you should still be highly 
>>> competitive.  If you start winning and lowering your PHRF rating you 
>>> can always switch back to the 150 and get the 9 seconds back.
>>>
>>> But if you cream the fleet with your 150 sail they will take so many 
>>> seconds off your rating that you will never be willing to lose 
>>> another 9 to try the 175.
>>>
>>> I'd love to know if a properly made 175 racing sail is more than 9 
>>> seconds faster than a properly made 150 racing sail.  I'd be willing 
>>> to put my money where my mouth is to find out, but I'm not willing to 
>>> get involved with racing.
>>>
>>> Any interest?
>>>
>>> I know we spoke of a Rhodes PHRF racing fleet last year which tries 
>>> to handicap all the different variations of our "one design" boat 
>>> along with the differing abilities of our captains, and if we can get 
>>> others to contribute time to the idea, I remain game.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> Peter Thorn wrote:
>>>> Wally,
>>>>
>>>> Of course I am planning to share the info about my new Cruising 
>>>> Direct sail
>>>> from with da list.  Dan Calore is working on a graphic image showing 
>>>> the
>>>> high clew and the "molds" they use to design the sail shape.  I'll 
>>>> pass it
>>>> on when I get it.
>>>>
>>>> Basically, a light air sail needs to be lightweight.  Raven has a 
>>>> 20+ y/o
>>>> Lee 175 that's 5-6oz and when the wind is really light it just won't 
>>>> fill -- but it has hard a very, very long useful life at that cloth 
>>>> weight.
>>>> Granted, I probably race in conditions when most would furl and 
>>>> motor, but
>>>> with the right sail you can keep going.  The new sail is Dacron on 
>>>> one side
>>>> and Mylar on the other.  It's 3.2 oz with a white leech/foot 
>>>> "coating" for
>>>> UV so it can be left on the CDI.  Dan says the sail is designed to a 
>>>> little
>>>> over 30 knots (before it blows apart) and should last about 7 years 
>>>> the way
>>>> I sail.  By contrast, their Dacron sail would be about $200 cheaper and
>>>> weigh about 4.7 oz.  But it won't hold a great shape for as long as the
>>>> laminated cloth sail will, so I think the laminate actually gives 
>>>> longer
>>>> "great sail shape" life.
>>>>
>>>> The standard GBI issue Doyle 175 is a pretty good compromise for 
>>>> those with
>>>> only one headsail.  It's at best in 6-10, needs to be furled much 
>>>> over that
>>>> and, as mentioned above, my heavy old Lee 175 won't hold shape in 
>>>> very light
>>>> air.   In PHRF racing it would also accrue a 9 point rating penalty 
>>>> and I
>>>> just didn't want to go there...
>>>>
>>>> The sail is built to measurements I took off  Raven's and her CDI.
>>>> Fortunately, Raven came with a max length CDI, only short by about 
>>>> 5" from
>>>> the mast crane.
>>>>
>>>> As I recall:
>>>>
>>>>     38-40% maximum draft forward
>>>>     enough twist to clear the spreaders, not much more
>>>>     high clew - about 2' ( I like to see to leeward)
>>>>     max luff (CDI - 1")
>>>>     leech is slight concave
>>>>     foot is roached
>>>>     optimized to set full at rear of track, car moves forward as furled
>>>>     max LP = 155 on the money
>>>>
>>>> I'll let you know more later.
>>>>
>>>> PT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:42 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Doug - Both of the sails that came with my boat had rope luff. I 
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> used a foam luff so I can't compare but the rope luff worked great 
>>>>> when
>>>>> furled.
>>>>>
>>>>> PT - I am curious about your new sail. I am ordering a sail this 
>>>>> spring
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> half been considering all of the options. I have held off long
>>>>>
>>>> enough...well
>>>>
>>>>> actually too long. I am leaning towards dacron because I will leave 
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>> sail
>>>>
>>>>> on the boat. I am guessing yours is a race sail; is there a 
>>>>> sacrificial
>>>>> strip? Did you bother with window?  My current quantum sail is 
>>>>> dacron and
>>>>> the sacrifical strip is a heavier grade dacron. It holds shape much 
>>>>> better
>>>>> than some of the heavier cloths used. The dacron lasted 6 years and is
>>>>>
>>>> just
>>>>
>>>>> now showiing signs of wear. I am thinging of ordering the 
>>>>> same...did you
>>>>> provide actual measurements or did they have something "on file"? I 
>>>>> know
>>>>>
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>> will update us when you recieve....oh yeah how long did they say it 
>>>>> would
>>>>> take?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> To: "Rhodes 22 List Members" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> CC: Dan Calore <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:11:37 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doug,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really don't know, but passed your note to Dan Calore, who just 
>>>>>> sold me
>>>>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>>> PHRF optimized semi-mylar 3.2 oz 155, and got Dan's response below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cruising Direct is North's discount high volume outlet.  Sold on 
>>>>>> the web
>>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>>> Rhode Island, designed in San Diego (by North guys) and 
>>>>>> manufactured in
>>>>>>
>>>> Sri
>>>>
>>>>>> Lanka.  Globalization has hit sails!  The price was excellent, but I
>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>> received the sail yet.  They were responsive to my concerns for a max
>>>>>>
>>>> luff
>>>>
>>>>>> and high clew.  They guaranteed critical measurements (luff and 
>>>>>> LP) to
>>>>>> reasonable tolerance, +/- 2" everywhere else.  We'll see...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck with your new sail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dan Calore" <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>>> To: "'Peter Thorn'" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:53 PM
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>    We actually use the RopeLuff pad as well.   As far as cost 
>>>>>>> goes the
>>>>>>> ropeluff is cost more money to manufacture and install then a foam
>>>>>>>
>>>> luff.
>>>>
>>>>>>> North Sails is using the Ropeluff pads on almost every sail, because
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> maintain their shape over the life of the sail better then a foam
>>>>>>>
>>>> luff,
>>>>
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> do not absorb water  or mildew as quickly as a foam luff either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> advantage is that you can remove the rope from the luff pocket and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> reinstall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it relatively easily if you so desire.   Having sailed with both the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> foam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and rope I think that the ropeluff gives you better shape when
>>>>>>>
>>>> partially
>>>>
>>>>>>> furled and would go with that on my own boat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter I hope this helps, if you need more detail please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan Calore
>>>>>>> Cruising Direct Sails
>>>>>>> North Sails
>>>>>>> 1-888-424-7328
>>>>>>> 1-401-366-6012
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:43 PM
>>>>>>> To: Dan Calore
>>>>>>> Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This came in on the Rhodes 22 list-serve today.  I would appreciate
>>>>>>>
>>>> your
>>>>
>>>>>>> comments.  As I recall you use foam luffs, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Gardner, Douglas (LNG-DAY)" <douglas.gardner at lexisnexis.com>
>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:27 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do any of you have experience with a rope luff pad?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just received my new 150% Genoa, and had specified a seafoam luff
>>>>>>>
>>>> pad.
>>>>
>>>>>>> However, it was delivered from Doyle with a rope luff pad.  I know
>>>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>>>> North is touting the rope luff as the next great thing (doesn't
>>>>>>> compress, doesn't absorb water, etc.).  But it seems to me that its
>>>>>>> greatest advantage is that it is easy to install, and that is 
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>> why Doyle is going with it too.  Stan said that all of their larger
>>>>>>> sails still come with the foam pad, so he doesn't know what is going
>>>>>>>
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Before I send it back to Doyle and tell them to send me what I asked
>>>>>>> for, I'd like some opinions on whether or not I should be glad I 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> the rope luff pad instead of the foam pad. My web searches haven't
>>>>>>> turned up anything but the company propaganda, so I really don't 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>
>>>> an
>>>>
>>>>>>> objective opinion.  I won't have the opportunity to try it until 
>>>>>>> May,
>>>>>>> and my guess is that will be a little late to tell them to do it
>>>>>>>
>>>> right!
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Doug Gardner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> s/v Fretnaught
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>
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