[Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175

TN Rhodey tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Mon Feb 19 08:18:34 EST 2007 

Art,  Well Bill has backed off his original statement and now it sounds like 
he is agreeing with me. As I said (and now Bill) the bigger sail in the 
right conditions is faster. He has also add "cruiser" as a a quantifier yet 
he wants to outfit cruiser with racing sail.....also Roger never said the 
155 was faster in all conditions. He had more sense than that.

Wally


>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:36:28 -0500 (EST)
>
>Wally,
>
>My complete agreement on this, although this can be risky in Bill's case.  
>In my mind there is an added bonus when I want to sail with only the Genny. 
>  This was especially important when I had a conventional mast, or if I 
>wanted to keep my BR cover over the boom.  I now use IMF and have the BR 
>cover up constantly, but on another horizontal pole.  This Spring I will 
>sail with and without main and be able to compare balance and speed factors 
>that I can attribute to the main and will report back.
>
>Art
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >Sent: Feb 18, 2007 12:15 PM
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
> >
> >Wally,
> >
> >I once served on a PHRF rating committee, even though I have no interest
> >in sailing per se.
> >
> >Our job was to try to keep the races fair.  Ideally, under PHRF, every
> >sailor can win the race on any day.  The handicap is supposed to make it
> >possible for there to be an absolute tie, by handicapping both the
> >equipment on board, and the ability of the sailor.
> >
> >I left the committee because the sailors cheat.  They do poorly in
> >unimportant races, and then come out of nowhere to win the big ones.
> >They switch equipment on board to change their boat's characteristics in
> >ways that can't be detected.  (Blowing out water ballast during a light
> >wind race is an easy example, hard to prove, except that only one boat
> >is moving so you know what is happening.)
> >
> >Again, I reference our newbies.  I see many people getting 155s because
> >others on the list say they are "faster" (Roger used to say that all the
> >time).
> >
> >As a cruising boat the 175 is the best sail.  In some circumstances, the
> >155 is a better choice.  (Jay never has light wind--a 155 is a much
> >better sail for him.)
> >
> >Around here, we chuckle about people who spend all their time sailing in
> >triangles.  There is much to be learned in a short period of time from
> >racing around buoys, but it all seems to quickly degenerate into winning
> >at all costs with little more learned in the actual sailing department.
> >Many of the winners turn out to be better cheats than they are sailors.
> >
> >I have a hunch that a properly made 175 on an R-22 is more than 9
> >seconds faster than a 155 under certain conditions, and that if you can
> >spot those conditions you are more likely to win buoy races with a 175
> >and a 9 second penalty than you will with a 155 and no penalty.
> >
> >If I can find someone to test this theory for me, I think Stan can make
> >a better 175 for all of us.
> >
> >Until then, I want most newbies who are in the process of configuring
> >their boats to understand that except for racing (maybe) and certain
> >bodies of water, the 175 is the sail designed for the boat.
> >
> >Bill Effros
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >TN Rhodey wrote:
> >> Bill, I always get a chuckle when you talk about PHRF ratings and the
> >> one fastest sail. I guess it comes down to how you define absolute
> >> speed. I have never seen a post saying the 155 is fastest..... Most of
> >> us know that course and conditions determine the best/fastest sail for
> >> racing. To claim any sail is the absolute best is ignorant. Also...Are
> >> you talking top end or getting around a course?
> >>
> >> In the right wind conditions (light) and course (triangle) the 170(5)
> >> is faster around. In heavier winds and traditional upwind-downwind
> >> race my money is on the 155 (max), Have you ever used mylar sails?
> >> They hold a nice foil even in light air. Others on this list have
> >> commented about the heavy 170 in light air not holding shape. I sure
> >> would not want to be in a tacking battle for the windward mark flying
> >> a 170. The same wind would have mylar 155 sail in nice foil. There is
> >> a reason racers use mylar. There is a reason most buoy racers don't
> >> use IMF, or large heavy genoas, or sails without battens, or
> >> cunninghams, or downhauls.
> >>
> >> There is a higher PHRF hit for spinnaker compared to hit for 170...so
> >> wouldn't a spinnaker be the fastest sail?  Most serious racers know if
> >> they fly the kite well the hit is worth it. However the same crew may
> >> opt not to fly spinnaker on windy day because the PHRF hit is not
> >> worth the risk verses what can go wrong or break. So yes the 170 under
> >> the right conditions and course is the fastest sail. But different
> >> course and conditons a smaller sail would do better.
> >>
> >> Your posts about PHRF and racing make it obvious you don't race. It is
> >> much different than day sailing. The guys I race with love when folks
> >> like you join in for a day at the races. Before you start eating your
> >> lunch join a local race fleet....if you keep an open mind you might be
> >> surprised at how much you learn.
> >>
> >> Wally
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
> >>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0500
> >>>
> >>> Peter,
> >>>
> >>> Every time newbies come on the list, the racing people tell them a
> >>> 150 sail is faster than a 175.  They never mention that the reason
> >>> for saying this is based on the intricacies of PHRF racing which
> >>> assigns a penalty to the larger sail, and that the way the newbies
> >>> are likely to use the sail they will probably go faster in absolute
> >>> terms with a 175. -- At least, that's what the PHRF fleet thinks.
> >>>
> >>> But we don't really know.
> >>>
> >>> I know you can't wait to cream your fleet with your new sail, but...
> >>>
> >>> With the PHRF rating you've got, I think I could cream your fleet.
> >>> If you sail a 175 and lose 9 seconds, you should still be highly
> >>> competitive.  If you start winning and lowering your PHRF rating you
> >>> can always switch back to the 150 and get the 9 seconds back.
> >>>
> >>> But if you cream the fleet with your 150 sail they will take so many
> >>> seconds off your rating that you will never be willing to lose
> >>> another 9 to try the 175.
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to know if a properly made 175 racing sail is more than 9
> >>> seconds faster than a properly made 150 racing sail.  I'd be willing
> >>> to put my money where my mouth is to find out, but I'm not willing to
> >>> get involved with racing.
> >>>
> >>> Any interest?
> >>>
> >>> I know we spoke of a Rhodes PHRF racing fleet last year which tries
> >>> to handicap all the different variations of our "one design" boat
> >>> along with the differing abilities of our captains, and if we can get
> >>> others to contribute time to the idea, I remain game.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Effros
> >>>
> >>> Peter Thorn wrote:
> >>>> Wally,
> >>>>
> >>>> Of course I am planning to share the info about my new Cruising
> >>>> Direct sail
> >>>> from with da list.  Dan Calore is working on a graphic image showing
> >>>> the
> >>>> high clew and the "molds" they use to design the sail shape.  I'll
> >>>> pass it
> >>>> on when I get it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Basically, a light air sail needs to be lightweight.  Raven has a
> >>>> 20+ y/o
> >>>> Lee 175 that's 5-6oz and when the wind is really light it just won't
> >>>> fill -- but it has hard a very, very long useful life at that cloth
> >>>> weight.
> >>>> Granted, I probably race in conditions when most would furl and
> >>>> motor, but
> >>>> with the right sail you can keep going.  The new sail is Dacron on
> >>>> one side
> >>>> and Mylar on the other.  It's 3.2 oz with a white leech/foot
> >>>> "coating" for
> >>>> UV so it can be left on the CDI.  Dan says the sail is designed to a
> >>>> little
> >>>> over 30 knots (before it blows apart) and should last about 7 years
> >>>> the way
> >>>> I sail.  By contrast, their Dacron sail would be about $200 cheaper 
>and
> >>>> weigh about 4.7 oz.  But it won't hold a great shape for as long as 
>the
> >>>> laminated cloth sail will, so I think the laminate actually gives
> >>>> longer
> >>>> "great sail shape" life.
> >>>>
> >>>> The standard GBI issue Doyle 175 is a pretty good compromise for
> >>>> those with
> >>>> only one headsail.  It's at best in 6-10, needs to be furled much
> >>>> over that
> >>>> and, as mentioned above, my heavy old Lee 175 won't hold shape in
> >>>> very light
> >>>> air.   In PHRF racing it would also accrue a 9 point rating penalty
> >>>> and I
> >>>> just didn't want to go there...
> >>>>
> >>>> The sail is built to measurements I took off  Raven's and her CDI.
> >>>> Fortunately, Raven came with a max length CDI, only short by about
> >>>> 5" from
> >>>> the mast crane.
> >>>>
> >>>> As I recall:
> >>>>
> >>>>     38-40% maximum draft forward
> >>>>     enough twist to clear the spreaders, not much more
> >>>>     high clew - about 2' ( I like to see to leeward)
> >>>>     max luff (CDI - 1")
> >>>>     leech is slight concave
> >>>>     foot is roached
> >>>>     optimized to set full at rear of track, car moves forward as 
>furled
> >>>>     max LP = 155 on the money
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll let you know more later.
> >>>>
> >>>> PT
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> >>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:42 AM
> >>>> Subject: RE: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Doug - Both of the sails that came with my boat had rope luff. I
> >>>>> haven't
> >>>>> used a foam luff so I can't compare but the rope luff worked great
> >>>>> when
> >>>>> furled.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> PT - I am curious about your new sail. I am ordering a sail this
> >>>>> spring
> >>>>>
> >>>> and
> >>>>
> >>>>> half been considering all of the options. I have held off long
> >>>>>
> >>>> enough...well
> >>>>
> >>>>> actually too long. I am leaning towards dacron because I will leave
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>> sail
> >>>>
> >>>>> on the boat. I am guessing yours is a race sail; is there a
> >>>>> sacrificial
> >>>>> strip? Did you bother with window?  My current quantum sail is
> >>>>> dacron and
> >>>>> the sacrifical strip is a heavier grade dacron. It holds shape much
> >>>>> better
> >>>>> than some of the heavier cloths used. The dacron lasted 6 years and 
>is
> >>>>>
> >>>> just
> >>>>
> >>>>> now showiing signs of wear. I am thinging of ordering the
> >>>>> same...did you
> >>>>> provide actual measurements or did they have something "on file"? I
> >>>>> know
> >>>>>
> >>>> you
> >>>>
> >>>>> will update us when you recieve....oh yeah how long did they say it
> >>>>> would
> >>>>> take?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> To: "Rhodes 22 List Members" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> CC: Dan Calore <dan at direct.northsails.com>
> >>>>>> Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
> >>>>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:11:37 -0500
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Doug,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I really don't know, but passed your note to Dan Calore, who just
> >>>>>> sold me
> >>>>>>
> >>>> a
> >>>>
> >>>>>> PHRF optimized semi-mylar 3.2 oz 155, and got Dan's response below.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cruising Direct is North's discount high volume outlet.  Sold on
> >>>>>> the web
> >>>>>>
> >>>> in
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Rhode Island, designed in San Diego (by North guys) and
> >>>>>> manufactured in
> >>>>>>
> >>>> Sri
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Lanka.  Globalization has hit sails!  The price was excellent, but 
>I
> >>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>> received the sail yet.  They were responsive to my concerns for a 
>max
> >>>>>>
> >>>> luff
> >>>>
> >>>>>> and high clew.  They guaranteed critical measurements (luff and
> >>>>>> LP) to
> >>>>>> reasonable tolerance, +/- 2" everywhere else.  We'll see...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Good luck with your new sail.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> PT
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Dan Calore" <dan at direct.northsails.com>
> >>>>>> To: "'Peter Thorn'" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:53 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Peter,
> >>>>>>>    We actually use the RopeLuff pad as well.   As far as cost
> >>>>>>> goes the
> >>>>>>> ropeluff is cost more money to manufacture and install then a foam
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> luff.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> North Sails is using the Ropeluff pads on almost every sail, 
>because
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> maintain their shape over the life of the sail better then a foam
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> luff,
> >>>>
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> do not absorb water  or mildew as quickly as a foam luff either.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> advantage is that you can remove the rope from the luff pocket and
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> reinstall
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> it relatively easily if you so desire.   Having sailed with both 
>the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> foam
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> and rope I think that the ropeluff gives you better shape when
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> partially
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> furled and would go with that on my own boat.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Peter I hope this helps, if you need more detail please let me 
>know.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan Calore
> >>>>>>> Cruising Direct Sails
> >>>>>>> North Sails
> >>>>>>> 1-888-424-7328
> >>>>>>> 1-401-366-6012
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:43 PM
> >>>>>>> To: Dan Calore
> >>>>>>> Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This came in on the Rhodes 22 list-serve today.  I would 
>appreciate
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> your
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> comments.  As I recall you use foam luffs, right?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> PT
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Gardner, Douglas (LNG-DAY)" 
><douglas.gardner at lexisnexis.com>
> >>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:27 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi everybody,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do any of you have experience with a rope luff pad?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I just received my new 150% Genoa, and had specified a seafoam 
>luff
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> pad.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> However, it was delivered from Doyle with a rope luff pad.  I know
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> that
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> North is touting the rope luff as the next great thing (doesn't
> >>>>>>> compress, doesn't absorb water, etc.).  But it seems to me that 
>its
> >>>>>>> greatest advantage is that it is easy to install, and that is
> >>>>>>> probably
> >>>>>>> why Doyle is going with it too.  Stan said that all of their 
>larger
> >>>>>>> sails still come with the foam pad, so he doesn't know what is 
>going
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> on.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Before I send it back to Doyle and tell them to send me what I 
>asked
> >>>>>>> for, I'd like some opinions on whether or not I should be glad I
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> the rope luff pad instead of the foam pad. My web searches haven't
> >>>>>>> turned up anything but the company propaganda, so I really don't
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> an
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> objective opinion.  I won't have the opportunity to try it until
> >>>>>>> May,
> >>>>>>> and my guess is that will be a little late to tell them to do it
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> right!
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --Doug Gardner
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> s/v Fretnaught
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>
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> >>
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