[Rhodes22-list] IMF

Sun Feb 18 12:47:06 EST 2007

Jb,

I have no doubt, you will be hearing from Rummy shortly.

Keep us posted on your sail!

-----Original Message-----
>From: JbTek <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>
>Sent: Feb 18, 2007 12:36 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF
>
>Art,
>We plan to go to Oakland for Stricktly Sail in April. A trip to Edenton will
>follow shortly after, I think a warmer test sail would be best. I'm trying
>to cover all bases.
>Captain Morgans Spiced Rum is the rum of choice.
>Jb
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:24 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF
>
>
>Jb,
>So when do you anticipate your first sail in the R22?  We supply all the
>words, the boat will supply the action.  Take your wife to Edenton for a
>weekend, or visit one of the fleet skippers, sail on the boat and you'll
>never have a doubt.  Dream up every possible objection, and I'll bet you
>will overcome them all.  We will welcome you into the fleet with a bottle of
>the best Rum.
>Art
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: JbTek <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>
>>Sent: Feb 18, 2007 11:48 AM
>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>
>>yes, I follow
>>Jb
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>
>>
>>> Wally,
>>>
>>> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
>>> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
>>> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
>>> necessarily do.
>>>
>>> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
>>> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
>>> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
>>> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
>>> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when heeled.
>>> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
>>> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>>>
>>> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
>>> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
>>> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS. The
>>> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than 6.25
>>> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>> > Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
>>> > may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
>>> > commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
>>> >
>>> > One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
>>> > reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
>>> > the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
>>> > main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
>>> > further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
>>> >
>>> > Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
>>> > create heel....and I go faster.
>>> >
>>> > Wally
>>> >
>>> >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>> >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
>>> >>
>>> >> Jim,
>>> >>
>>> >> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
>>> >>
>>> >> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
>>> >> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
>>> >> IMF is deployed.
>>> >>
>>> >> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
>>> >> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
>>> >> variable is the skill of the captain.
>>> >>
>>> >> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
>>> >> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
>>> >> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled over.
>>> >>
>>> >> Bill Effros
>>> >>
>>> >> Jim Connolly wrote:
>>> >>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from
>a
>>> >>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
>>> >>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
>>> >>> (fixed
>>> >>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can
>be
>>> >>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
>>> >>> center of
>>> >>> gravity or CG).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
>>> >>> smaller).
>>> >>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
>>> >>> also stays
>>> >>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
>>> >>> furling
>>> >>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
>>> >>> center
>>> >>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
>>> >>> conventional
>>> >>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
>>> >>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
>>> >>> significant part of the whole.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
>>> >>> assembly with
>>> >>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
>>> >>> sure
>>> >>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
>>> >>> might be a
>>> >>> factor in some wind conditions.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> For me, convenience trumps all.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Jim Connolly
>>> >>> s/v Inisheer
>>> >>> '85 recycled '03
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
>>> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
>>> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>> >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Wally,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
>>> >>> do when
>>> >>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
>>> >>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
>>> >>> total
>>> >>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
>>> >>> instead
>>> >>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
>>> >>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
>>> >>> conditions.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
>>> >>> sail is
>>> >>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
>>> >>> since the
>>> >>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
>>> >>> sail
>>> >>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
>>> >>> greater
>>> >>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
>>> >>> rum. Or
>>> >>> not.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both are
>>> >>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
>>> >>> I change
>>> >>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
>>> >>> sailor will
>>> >>> do it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
>>> >>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
>>> >>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
>>> >>> any
>>> >>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
>>> >>> over the
>>> >>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
>>> >>> irresponsible to
>>> >>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
>>> >>> larger boat
>>> >>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
>>their
>>> >>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
>>our
>>> >>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
>>> >>> sails inside
>>> >>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
>>> >>> wife
>>> >>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
>>like
>>> >>> ours.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bill Effros
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Bill,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
>>> >>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
>>> >>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
>>> >>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
>>> >>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
>>> >>>> I may be totally wrong.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
>>> >>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
>>> >>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
>>> >>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
>>> >>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
>>> >>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
>>> >>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
>>> >>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
>>> >>>> worth any cons.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Wally
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>> >>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Wally,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Bill Effros
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
>>> >>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
>>> >>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
>>> >>>>>> effect on balance.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Wally
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
>>> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
>>> >>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
>>> >>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
>>> >>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
>>> >>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
>>> >>>>>>> transport.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
>>> >>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
>>> >>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
>>> >>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
>>> >>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
>>enough.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
>>> >>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
>>> >>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
>>> >>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
>>> >>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
>>> >>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
>>> >>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
>>> >>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
>>> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
>>> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
>>> >>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
>>> >>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
>>> >>>>>>>> R22.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
>>> >>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
>>> >>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Mike
>>> >>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>> >>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
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>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> >>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
>>> >>>> Experian.
>>> >>>>
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>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
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>>> >>>
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>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
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