[Rhodes22-list] IMF
Arthur H. Czerwonky
czerwonky at earthlink.net
Sun Feb 18 12:52:21 EST 2007
Bill,
Rummy actually has two names, split personality, you know.
I could enumerate, but most of the names might defile our board, especially as we have the ladies in company. You know how sensitive they can be.
Art
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>Sent: Feb 18, 2007 12:40 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>
>Sorry, Jb,
>
>We try to call people by the names they sign unless we are taunting
>them. I would call you Jb.
>
>The Jay I mentioned was Jay on Long Beach Island, NJ with whom I try to
>spend an hour on the water on Father's Day every year.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>(See how easy it is to get off sailing topics on this list...)
>
>PS -- In terms of computer etiquette I have not changed the subject line
>on this post because I expect it to die quickly, and digest people might
>want to follow. It's a judgment call, but as a newbie you might wonder
>why everyone just doesn't change the subject line every time they
>realize they have switched subjects.
>
>PPS -- I always sign my full name because there are enough Bills in the
>world so that at any given time there is likely to be more than one on
>the list. Rummy doesn't have to do that, although many people never
>figure out his given name.
>
>
>
>
>
>JbTek wrote:
>> yes, I follow
>> Jb
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>
>>
>>
>>> Wally,
>>>
>>> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
>>> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
>>> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
>>> necessarily do.
>>>
>>> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
>>> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
>>> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
>>> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
>>> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when heeled.
>>> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
>>> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
>>>
>>> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
>>> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
>>> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS. The
>>> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than 6.25
>>> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
>>>> may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
>>>> commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
>>>>
>>>> One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
>>>> reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
>>>> the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
>>>> main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
>>>> further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
>>>>
>>>> Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
>>>> create heel....and I go faster.
>>>>
>>>> Wally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
>>>>> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
>>>>> IMF is deployed.
>>>>>
>>>>> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
>>>>> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
>>>>> variable is the skill of the captain.
>>>>>
>>>>> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
>>>>> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
>>>>> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled over.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Connolly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from a
>>>>>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
>>>>>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
>>>>>> (fixed
>>>>>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can be
>>>>>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
>>>>>> center of
>>>>>> gravity or CG).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
>>>>>> smaller).
>>>>>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
>>>>>> also stays
>>>>>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
>>>>>> furling
>>>>>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
>>>>>> center
>>>>>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
>>>>>> conventional
>>>>>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
>>>>>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
>>>>>> significant part of the whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
>>>>>> assembly with
>>>>>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
>>>>>> sure
>>>>>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
>>>>>> might be a
>>>>>> factor in some wind conditions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me, convenience trumps all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Connolly
>>>>>> s/v Inisheer
>>>>>> '85 recycled '03
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
>>>>>> do when
>>>>>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
>>>>>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
>>>>>> total
>>>>>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
>>>>>> instead
>>>>>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
>>>>>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
>>>>>> sail is
>>>>>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
>>>>>> since the
>>>>>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
>>>>>> sail
>>>>>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
>>>>>> greater
>>>>>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
>>>>>> rum. Or
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both are
>>>>>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
>>>>>> I change
>>>>>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
>>>>>> sailor will
>>>>>> do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
>>>>>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
>>>>>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
>>>>>> over the
>>>>>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
>>>>>> irresponsible to
>>>>>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
>>>>>> larger boat
>>>>>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
>>>>>>
>> their
>>
>>>>>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
>>>>>>
>> our
>>
>>>>>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
>>>>>> sails inside
>>>>>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
>>>>>> wife
>>>>>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
>>>>>>
>> like
>>
>>>>>> ours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
>>>>>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
>>>>>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
>>>>>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
>>>>>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
>>>>>>> I may be totally wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
>>>>>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
>>>>>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
>>>>>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
>>>>>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
>>>>>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
>>>>>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
>>>>>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
>>>>>>> worth any cons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wally,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
>>>>>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
>>>>>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
>>>>>>>>> effect on balance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
>>>>>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
>>>>>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
>>>>>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
>>>>>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
>>>>>>>>>> transport.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
>>>>>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
>>>>>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
>>>>>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
>>>>>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
>>>>>>>>>>
>> enough.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
>>>>>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
>>>>>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
>>>>>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
>>>>>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
>>>>>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
>>>>>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
>>>>>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
>>>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
>>>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
>>>>>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
>>>>>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
>>>>>>>>>>> R22.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
>>>>>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
>>>>>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
>>>>>>>>> best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
>>>>>>> Experian.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOO
>>
>>>>>>> TERAVERAGE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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