[Rhodes22-list] Oakland strickly sail
b.ivers at att.net
b.ivers at att.net
Mon Feb 19 14:37:03 EST 2007
JB and Chris,
Wife Joyce and I were planning to go to Oakland Strictly Sail also, and I would love to meet you both. We pull our r-22 and secure a bearth at berkely marina. Then take vehicle to the show. We have also sailed the Oakland estuary for fun several times, so a test sail on a r-22 would be simple to do.
Barry
-------------- Original message from "JbTek" <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>: --------------
> We usually fly in Sat morning, spend the day looking at boats, then an early
> dinner so we can fly home that eavening.
> When it gets close we can work out some details to meet.
>
> Jb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geankoplis"
> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:50 PM
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Oakland strickly sail
>
>
> > Hey JB,
> > Perhaps I can get free and I could meet you there with my wife and
> > then buy Stan et al dinner.
> >
> > Chris G
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of JbTek
> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:36 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF
> >
> > Art,
> > We plan to go to Oakland for Stricktly Sail in April. A trip to Edenton
> will
> > follow shortly after, I think a warmer test sail would be best. I'm trying
> > to cover all bases.
> > Captain Morgans Spiced Rum is the rum of choice.
> > Jb
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF
> >
> >
> > Jb,
> > So when do you anticipate your first sail in the R22? We supply all the
> > words, the boat will supply the action. Take your wife to Edenton for a
> > weekend, or visit one of the fleet skippers, sail on the boat and you'll
> > never have a doubt. Dream up every possible objection, and I'll bet you
> > will overcome them all. We will welcome you into the fleet with a bottle
> of
> > the best Rum.
> > Art
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: JbTek
> > >Sent: Feb 18, 2007 11:48 AM
> > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >
> > >yes, I follow
> > >Jb
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Bill Effros"
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > >Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >
> > >
> > >> Wally,
> > >>
> > >> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
> > >> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
> > >> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
> > >> necessarily do.
> > >>
> > >> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
> > >> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
> > >> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
> > >> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
> > >> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when
> heeled.
> > >> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
> > >> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
> > >>
> > >> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
> > >> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
> > >> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS.
> The
> > >> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than
> 6.25
> > >> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
> > >>
> > >> Bill Effros
> > >>
> > >> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > >> > Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
> > >> > may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
> > >> > commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
> > >> >
> > >> > One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled
> and/or
> > >> > reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
> > >> > the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
> > >> > main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
> > >> > further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
> > >> >
> > >> > Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side
> to
> > >> > create heel....and I go faster.
> > >> >
> > >> > Wally
> > >> >
> > >> >> From: Bill Effros
> > >> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >> >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Jim,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
> > >> >> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
> > >> >> IMF is deployed.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that
> it
> > >> >> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
> > >> >> variable is the skill of the captain.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
> > >> >> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
> > >> >> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled
> over.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Bill Effros
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Jim Connolly wrote:
> > >> >>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional
> from
> > a
> > >> >>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
> > >> >>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
> > >> >>> (fixed
> > >> >>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can
> > be
> > >> >>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
> > >> >>> center of
> > >> >>> gravity or CG).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
> > >> >>> smaller).
> > >> >>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
> > >> >>> also stays
> > >> >>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
> > >> >>> furling
> > >> >>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
> > >> >>> center
> > >> >>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
> > >> >>> conventional
> > >> >>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional
> mast/sail
> > >> >>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely
> a
> > >> >>> significant part of the whole.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
> > >> >>> assembly with
> > >> >>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I
> am
> > >> >>> sure
> > >> >>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
> > >> >>> might be a
> > >> >>> factor in some wind conditions.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> For me, convenience trumps all.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Jim Connolly
> > >> >>> s/v Inisheer
> > >> >>> '85 recycled '03
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >> >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> Effros
> > >> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
> > >> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Wally,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
> > >> >>> do when
> > >> >>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
> > >> >>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5%
> of
> > >> >>> total
> > >> >>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their
> sails
> > >> >>> instead
> > >> >>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is
> an
> > >> >>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
> > >> >>> conditions.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
> > >> >>> sail is
> > >> >>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
> > >> >>> since the
> > >> >>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
> > >> >>> sail
> > >> >>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
> > >> >>> greater
> > >> >>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
> > >> >>> rum. Or
> > >> >>> not.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both
> are
> > >> >>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
> > >> >>> I change
> > >> >>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
> > >> >>> sailor will
> > >> >>> do it.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
> > >> >>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is
> no
> > >> >>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail
> under
> > >> >>> any
> > >> >>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
> > >> >>> over the
> > >> >>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
> > >> >>> irresponsible to
> > >> >>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
> > >> >>> larger boat
> > >> >>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
> > >their
> > >> >>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
> > >our
> > >> >>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
> > >> >>> sails inside
> > >> >>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see
> my
> > >> >>> wife
> > >> >>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
> > >like
> > >> >>> ours.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Bill Effros
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>> Bill,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how
> much
> > >> >>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
> > >> >>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
> > >> >>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
> > >> >>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
> > >> >>>> I may be totally wrong.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
> > >> >>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
> > >> >>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
> > >> >>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you
> can
> > >> >>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
> > >> >>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
> > >> >>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
> > >> >>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
> > >> >>>> worth any cons.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Wally
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>> From: Bill Effros
> > >> >>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> > >> >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Wally,
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Bill Effros
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
> > >> >>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
> > >> >>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
> > >> >>>>>> effect on balance.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Wally
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima
> > >> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> > >> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers
> so
> > >> >>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
> > >> >>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main,
> and
> > >> >>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
> > >> >>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
> > >> >>>>>>> transport.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is
> thicker,
> > >> >>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
> > >> >>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef
> points,
> > >> >>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
> > >> >>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
> > >enough.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
> > >> >>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
> > >> >>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
> > >> >>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
> > >> >>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt
> Jib
> > >> >>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
> > >> >>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" wrote:
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
> > >> >>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
> > >> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
> > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
> > >> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
> > >> >>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't
> been
> > >> >>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
> > >> >>>>>>>> R22.
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
> > >> >>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
> > >> >>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the
> pop-top,
> > >> >>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>> Mike
> > >> >>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> > >> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >> >>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>> _________________________________________________________________
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> > >> >>>>
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> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> __________________________________________________
> > >> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>> __________________________________________________
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> > >> >>>
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> > >> >
> > >> > __________________________________________________
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