[Rhodes22-list] Oakland strickly sail

JbTek j.bulfer at jbtek.com
Mon Feb 19 07:45:52 EST 2007 

looking forward to it.
thanks,
Jb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <b.ivers at att.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Oakland strickly sail


>   JB and Chris,
>  Wife Joyce and I were planning to go to Oakland Strictly Sail also, and I
would love to meet you both. We pull our r-22 and secure a bearth at berkely
marina. Then take vehicle to the show. We have also sailed the Oakland
estuary for fun several times, so a test sail on a r-22 would be simple to
do.
>
Barry
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "JbTek"
<j.bulfer at jbtek.com>: -------------- 
>
>
> > We usually fly in Sat morning, spend the day looking at boats, then an
early
> > dinner so we can fly home that eavening.
> > When it gets close we can work out some details to meet.
> >
> > Jb
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Geankoplis"
> > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:50 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Oakland strickly sail
> >
> >
> > > Hey JB,
> > > Perhaps I can get free and I could meet you there with my wife and
> > > then buy Stan et al dinner.
> > >
> > > Chris G
> > >
> > > -----Original Message----- 
> > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of JbTek
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:36 AM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF
> > >
> > > Art,
> > > We plan to go to Oakland for Stricktly Sail in April. A trip to
Edenton
> > will
> > > follow shortly after, I think a warmer test sail would be best. I'm
trying
> > > to cover all bases.
> > > Captain Morgans Spiced Rum is the rum of choice.
> > > Jb
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:24 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF
> > >
> > >
> > > Jb,
> > > So when do you anticipate your first sail in the R22? We supply all
the
> > > words, the boat will supply the action. Take your wife to Edenton for
a
> > > weekend, or visit one of the fleet skippers, sail on the boat and
you'll
> > > never have a doubt. Dream up every possible objection, and I'll bet
you
> > > will overcome them all. We will welcome you into the fleet with a
bottle
> > of
> > > the best Rum.
> > > Art
> > >
> > > -----Original Message----- 
> > > >From: JbTek
> > > >Sent: Feb 18, 2007 11:48 AM
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > > >
> > > >yes, I follow
> > > >Jb
> > > >----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >From: "Bill Effros"
> > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > >Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Wally,
> > > >>
> > > >> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure
out
> > > >> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess
your
> > > >> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think
they
> > > >> necessarily do.
> > > >>
> > > >> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee
side
> > > >> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is
less
> > > >> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
> > > >> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your
top
> > > >> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when
> > heeled.
> > > >> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and
I
> > > >> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every
time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind.
Father's
> > > >> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
> > > >> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a
GPS.
> > The
> > > >> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than
> > 6.25
> > > >> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
> > > >>
> > > >> Bill Effros
> > > >>
> > > >> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > > >> > Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated
you
> > > >> > may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
> > > >> > commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled
> > and/or
> > > >> > reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks
like
> > > >> > the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than
standard
> > > >> > main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
> > > >> > further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee
side
> > to
> > > >> > create heel....and I go faster.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Wally
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> From: Bill Effros
> > > >> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > > >> >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Jim,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your
equations.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of
the
> > > >> >> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or
an
> > > >> >> IMF is deployed.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs
that
> > it
> > > >> >> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only
significant
> > > >> >> variable is the skill of the captain.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on
plane. As
> > > >> >> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
> > > >> >> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled
> > over.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Bill Effros
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Jim Connolly wrote:
> > > >> >>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional
> > from
> > > a
> > > >> >>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the
mast
> > > >> >>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed
weights
> > > >> >>> (fixed
> > > >> >>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and
can
> > > be
> > > >> >>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
> > > >> >>> center of
> > > >> >>> gravity or CG).
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it
is
> > > >> >>> smaller).
> > > >> >>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the
sail
> > > >> >>> also stays
> > > >> >>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of
the
> > > >> >>> furling
> > > >> >>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the
mast.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not
the
> > > >> >>> center
> > > >> >>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
> > > >> >>> conventional
> > > >> >>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional
> > mast/sail
> > > >> >>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not
likely
> > a
> > > >> >>> significant part of the whole.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
> > > >> >>> assembly with
> > > >> >>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but
I
> > am
> > > >> >>> sure
> > > >> >>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast
extrusion
> > > >> >>> might be a
> > > >> >>> factor in some wind conditions.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> For me, convenience trumps all.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Jim Connolly
> > > >> >>> s/v Inisheer
> > > >> >>> '85 recycled '03
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- 
> > > >> >>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > >> >>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> > Effros
> > > >> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
> > > >> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Wally,
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very
hard to
> > > >> >>> do when
> > > >> >>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an
IMF.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The
IMF is
> > > >> >>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of
5%
> > of
> > > >> >>> total
> > > >> >>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their
> > sails
> > > >> >>> instead
> > > >> >>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it
is
> > an
> > > >> >>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
> > > >> >>> conditions.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that
your
> > > >> >>> sail is
> > > >> >>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail.
But,
> > > >> >>> since the
> > > >> >>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be
trimmed to
> > > >> >>> sail
> > > >> >>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is
probably no
> > > >> >>> greater
> > > >> >>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle
of
> > > >> >>> rum. Or
> > > >> >>> not.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail.
Both
> > are
> > > >> >>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions
change,
> > > >> >>> I change
> > > >> >>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
> > > >> >>> sailor will
> > > >> >>> do it.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
> > > >> >>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There
is
> > no
> > > >> >>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail
> > under
> > > >> >>> any
> > > >> >>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks
all
> > > >> >>> over the
> > > >> >>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
> > > >> >>> irresponsible to
> > > >> >>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most
experienced
> > > >> >>> larger boat
> > > >> >>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor
to
> > > >their
> > > >> >>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we
retract
> > > >our
> > > >> >>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
> > > >> >>> sails inside
> > > >> >>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives
see
> > my
> > > >> >>> wife
> > > >> >>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have
sails
> > > >like
> > > >> >>> ours.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> Bill Effros
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>> Bill,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how
> > much
> > > >> >>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back
when
> > > >> >>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
> > > >> >>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need
to
> > > >> >>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will
admit
> > > >> >>>> I may be totally wrong.
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle
changes in
> > > >> >>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
> > > >> >>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens
(except
> > > >> >>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls
you
> > can
> > > >> >>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
> > > >> >>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still
flatten
> > > >> >>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much
flatter,
> > > >> >>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
> > > >> >>>> worth any cons.
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> Wally
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>> From: Bill Effros
> > > >> >>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> > > >> >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>> Wally,
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>> Bill Effros
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The
sail is
> > > >> >>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef
sooner
> > > >> >>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have
some
> > > >> >>>>>> effect on balance.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>> Wally
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima
> > > >> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> > > >> >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail
covers
> > so
> > > >> >>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in
the
> > > >> >>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the
main,
> > and
> > > >> >>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited
reef
> > > >> >>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast
during
> > > >> >>>>>>> transport.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is
> > thicker,
> > > >> >>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like
Stan
> > > >> >>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef
> > points,
> > > >> >>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need
to
> > > >> >>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
> > > >enough.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of
the
> > > >> >>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to
lower
> > > >> >>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner
with
> > > >> >>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a
Rhodes
> > > >> >>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered
Hoyt
> > Jib
> > > >> >>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
> > > >> >>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the
ease
> > > >> >>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
> > > >> >>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the
small
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main
sail?
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't
> > been
> > > >> >>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on
our
> > > >> >>>>>>>> R22.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
> > > >> >>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the
> > pop-top,
> > > >> >>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Mike
> > > >> >>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> > > >> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > >> >>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>
_________________________________________________________________
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> > > >> >>>>
> > >
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> > > >> >>>> TERAVERAGE
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> __________________________________________________
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> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>
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