[Rhodes22-list] Sailing LIS

Fri Mar 9 10:45:28 EST 2007

Wally,

Let me know when you're around NYC, and let's go sailing together. You 
can teach me a lot.

Long Island Sound is a fascinating place to sail, and you would really 
appreciate it. Stan designed the R-22 for conditions on LIS, and when 
you try to use what he built into the boat you start to understand what 
you could be doing if only you were smarter.

I always sail for hours at a time holding trim, then I come about, and 
do it again to get home.

Water sloshes in and out of the Sound with the tides. There are 
bottlenecks at both ends where the current reaches 5-6 knots, reverses, 
and then does 5-6 knots in the other direction. This happens 4 times a 
day, and both the velocity and the direction of the currents is 
continually changing. Meanwhile there is a 10 foot tidal variation in 
many places, so you watch the old timers cutting corners, and then you 
see the newbies slam into rocks when they try to repeat what they just 
saw a couple of hours before.

At the same time, there is good air almost every day. Except that it 
shifts direction as land masses and water gain and lose heat over the 
course of the day. So it is almost always dead calm some of the time, 
and during the wind shifts only a few boats can actually sail. The R-22 
with a 175 is one of them.

DeLoreme sells a gps that plugs into a laptop along with a roadmap of 
the US for $100. It is full of hidden features that allow you to use it 
as a navigating system on the water. I am planning to build waypoints 
into a chart I am constructing for the part of the sound I sail. On the 
water it should track my route and speed from minute to minute, and 
retain that information until I get the laptop back home where I can 
analyze the data.

Once I have the navigation system under control I'm going to try playing 
with the variables as you suggest. I should be able to see set and 
drift, along with VMG. I plan to save the charts of each voyage so I can 
plan with them the following winter when I can relive the experiences 
and try to learn more from them.

I will keep notes on the charts of when I tried what variables. I'll let 
you know.

Bill

TN Rhodey wrote:
> Bill, We did this out in the Gulf Stream on a Pearson 35. We would 
> make changes and then hold that trim for hours. We weren't racing but 
> we were trying to make time up the coast. There were times we 
> mainained a steay 8-10 knots for hours on same tack. Part of the mix 
> was tuning for 2-3 knot or so push from Gulf Stream.
>
> Wally
>
>
>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:15:06 -0500
>>
>> Thanks, Wally,
>>
>> Another project to add to this summer's list. I've got open sailing 
>> and steady winds all the time. I'm anxious to understand this better.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>> Something to try when you have some wide open sailing space and 
>>> steady wind........first read the part of your GPS manual covering 
>>> VMG. Once you understand this head out to open waters and track your 
>>> VMG sailing towards upwind waypoint with board all the way down. Now 
>>> slowly raise your board and watch changes in VMG. Try this for 
>>> different points of sails....the higher you head into the wind the 
>>> more you want the board down. At a certain point between beating and 
>>> reaching your VMG will improve with board slightly raised. The 
>>> lighter the wind the wind the less it is needed. As you fall off the 
>>> wind the CB provides more drag than lift. You can actually measure 
>>> this with a GPS.
>>>
>>> Wally
>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>>> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:14:42 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Hank,
>>>>
>>>> As I understand racing, this is what it's all about -- the winners 
>>>> are the ones who can consistently correctly factor in enough 
>>>> variables to come in first.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>> Hank wrote:
>>>>> John,
>>>>>
>>>>> In theory you are correct, but generally you will not get near enough
>>>>> advantage in speed to counter the extra distance needed to travel 
>>>>> due to the
>>>>> side ward drift.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hank
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/07, john Belanger <jhnblngr at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> doesn't the essential arguement come down to the same thing. 
>>>>>> speed over
>>>>>> the course vs. distance travelled to get to a given point? are 
>>>>>> you getting
>>>>>> there quicker if you cant your bow off a few degrees to windward to
>>>>>> compensate for drift and get an increase in your speed by having 
>>>>>> the board
>>>>>> up ie less wetted surface?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote: Lee,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may be going faster with the centerboard up, but you will not be
>>>>>> making
>>>>>> better time toward your target due to sideways drift. I big 
>>>>>> function of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> centerboard is to prevent the boat from drifting sideways when 
>>>>>> reaching.
>>>>>> The only time a centerboard is not really needed is when sailing 
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> wind.
>>>>>> Of course, it doesn't really matter if you are not trying to get 
>>>>>> to a
>>>>>> specific destination such as when racing. If you don't care about 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> drift, then leave it up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hank
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/07, KUHN, LELAND wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Bud,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I've only sailed the Rhodes for a year, so I hope I'm not 
>>>>>> giving you bad
>>>>>> > advice.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If I want to point into the wind as much as possible, I'll put the
>>>>>> > centerboard all the way down. I'll also use the traveler and 
>>>>>> inside
>>>>>> > leads to flatten the sails. I've found that it's rare that I 
>>>>>> need that
>>>>>> > extra five degrees into the wind to get to where I want to go.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The centerboard can be used as a depth finder, but even with 
>>>>>> the soft
>>>>>> > mud bottom of the Chesapeake, you never know what you're going 
>>>>>> to hit.
>>>>>> > At the very least it will knock off your bottom paint.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The centerboard acts as a pivot point, allowing you to make 
>>>>>> sharper
>>>>>> > turns. Don't really need it for tacking but could come in handy
>>>>>> > motoring around the marina. The boat turns sharp enough for me 
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> > the board down.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Depending on your point-of-sail, wind, waves, and current; the
>>>>>> > centerboard will help balance the boat and take pressure off 
>>>>>> the tiller.
>>>>>> > I notice this really helps if I have too much sail out. I usually
>>>>>> > adjust the sails to balance the boat.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > As a newbie, I constantly check my speed to see what works best 
>>>>>> in all
>>>>>> > conditions. I have put the board up and down in every 
>>>>>> condition, and I
>>>>>> > am convinced that the drag from the centerboard will always 
>>>>>> slow you
>>>>>> > down. In most cases, I believe the centerboard's ability to 
>>>>>> keep you
>>>>>> > sailing in a straight line doesn't make up for the decrease in 
>>>>>> speed. I
>>>>>> > might be wrong on that last statement.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In my limited experience, the centerboard is a tool that you 
>>>>>> rarely need
>>>>>> > and will slow you down. I guess what surprised me was that most 
>>>>>> boats
>>>>>> > sail fastest on a close reach, due to the opposing pressures 
>>>>>> from the
>>>>>> > sails and keel (squeezing a watermelon seed analogy). On a 
>>>>>> close reach
>>>>>> > with a Rhodes, you will still go faster with the centerboard up.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, reread the first
>>>>>> > sentence. :)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Lee
>>>>>> > 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>>>>>> > Crab Alley (Kent Island, MD)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:18 AM
>>>>>> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Bud,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I'll add my 2 cents, in short: upwind all down, downwind all up.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Rhodes has a very light, balanced helm. With a large (175) 
>>>>>> headsail
>>>>>> > and
>>>>>> > smaller (not-newer vertical battened) main there can be a 
>>>>>> tendancy to
>>>>>> > leeward helm in light air. As the boat heels when the breeze 
>>>>>> picks up
>>>>>> > this
>>>>>> > is mitigated. So with the sailplan center of effort (CE) 
>>>>>> forward (the
>>>>>> > rig
>>>>>> > described above) the underwater fin's center of lateral resistance
>>>>>> > (CLR),
>>>>>> > which can be adjusted by the centerboard, also needs to be as 
>>>>>> forward as
>>>>>> > possible.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Another of the many advantages to having a centerboard is that 
>>>>>> you can
>>>>>> > change the CLR while underway by adjusting the board. In 
>>>>>> heavier air,
>>>>>> > when
>>>>>> > you would expose less area on the headsail going to windward, 
>>>>>> you can
>>>>>> > balance by raising the centerboard just a little.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > PT
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: "Mary Lou Troy"
>>>>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > > Bud,
>>>>>> > > I think it's just about vertical. Unless you are sailing in a 
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> > > weedy area, I don't think having the pennant exposed is a 
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>> > > It's just as likely to get fouled by growth in the slot. 
>>>>>> Our's seems
>>>>>> > > to stay cleaner the more we use it. We always pull the board 
>>>>>> up at
>>>>>> > > anchor or when we leave the boat in the slip but sailing 
>>>>>> upwind it is
>>>>>> > > always down as far as it will go. As Wally said, as we move 
>>>>>> off the
>>>>>> > > wind we start pulling the board up.
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > Mary Lou
>>>>>> > > 1991 R22 Fretless
>>>>>> > > Rock Hall, MD
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > >
>>>>>> > > At 08:39 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>> > > >Thanks to all who responded! Mary Lou - when you say all the 
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> > > >down, you mean the CB is nearly vertical?
>>>>>> > > >Do you run into any problems with the pennant line or sheaves
>>>>>> > > >exposed in that running configuration?
>>>>>> > > >I had thought the sheaves might get "gunked up" if they were 
>>>>>> exposed.
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > >Thanks again,
>>>>>> > > >Bud
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > >Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>> > > >>Bud,
>>>>>> > > >>Fretless is a 1991. We usually sail with the board all the way
>>>>>> > > >>down. Exceptions are downwind or very shallow water.
>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>> > > >>Mary Lou
>>>>>> > > >>1991 R22 Fretless
>>>>>> > > >>Rock Hall, MD
>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>> > > >>At 09:35 PM 3/6/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>> > > >>>Rummy,
>>>>>> > > >>> I have a 1990 R22, and I am pretty sure I do not have a 
>>>>>> "diamond"
>>>>>> > board.
>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>> > > >>>Thanks,
>>>>>> > > >>>-Bud
>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>> > > >>>R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>> > > >>>>Bud,
>>>>>> > > >>>>It depends on what year and centerboard design you have?
>>>>>> > > >>>>Rummy
>>>>>> > > >>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **************************************
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>>>>>> > > >>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>> > > >>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> > > >>>>
>>>>>> > > >>>>
>>>>>> > > >>>__________________________________________________
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>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>> > > >>>--
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>>>>>> > > >>>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release 
>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>> > > >>>3/5/2007 9:41 AM
>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>> > > >>__________________________________________________
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>>>>>> > > >__________________________________________________
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>>>>>> > > >
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>>>>>>
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